LEICESTERSHIRE COLLECTION

[actionoke]

I am not a British Regiment collector but got this collection and would like to know period badges used and where they would be worn ie cap,collar etc
Thanks

[mooke07]

Many thanks Alan for allowing me to purchase these Leicestershire Regiment badges for the family collection.

The first is an Officers silver and gilt Victorian Helmet plate 1881-1902. The green cloth backing may well suggest that it belongs to the 2nd or 3rd Battalion. The first Battalion version is in my Leicesters album with a black cloth backing as noted in K&K. K&K note that the The in the title came into effect in 1904, however, I believe this to be an error and The Leicestershire regiment took on this title in July 1881 (Churchill p. 87) as both QVC Officers helmet plates I have bear The Leicestershire Regiment title as is shown in K&K 232 with KC.

The next is an Officers cap Tiger badge in silver and gilt (as per K&K 612). It is a cast two piece badge which is unmarked but similar in construction to my Gaunt marked Officers badge again in my Leicesters album. Dating 1897 through to 1946 but a lugged version like this is likely to be Victorian/Edwardian issue.

The next is an attractive Officers two piece forage cap badge for 1st, 2nd and 3rd battalions. This badge bears the Irish harp for their service in Ireland awarded in 1798 and the Tiger for India (1804-1823). I have an OSD version in the same album. The ORs glengarry 1874-1881 and the Officers helmet plate 1879-1881 (Churchill p. 88).

The smaller badge is an unusual badge - it bears the Tiger and Harp of the Officers forage cap badge but lacks the backing plate and is in gilding metal with broached pin. This could be a side cap badge or an early sweatheart badge.

The collar (not photographed) is an Officers collar with brass lugs and is a noted variant in Churchill Fig. 535 with raised paw.

The buttons are Firmin and Sons sealed Officers pattern.

It is possible that as these badges came from South Africa that they were worn in the Boer war where the 1st Battalion and 3rd Battalion (Leicestershire Militia pre-1881) were engaged. Again the green backing cloth of the HP suggests the 3rd Battalion.

Keen to have advice on these whilst I do more research, cheers and thanks again Alan, Dean.

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Dean

It’s been a long time since we were last in touch, and longer still since I last actively contributed to the Forum. Life generally conspires to keep me from ‘things badges’, but your latest posting has prompted me to drop by, if only to make a few observations/comments. Firstly, congratulations on your latest acquisitions from actionoke, you’ve certainly got some lovely items here. As you’ll be aware I do not profess to be an expert on military accoutrement, so am not in a position to help you with most of what you’ve bought, but given my research into the Leicesters’ tiger cap badge I was particularly interested to see the officer’s silver and gilt example.

You may well be right inasmuch as this collection, including the cap badge, do date from the time of the Boer War, and could well be connected to the 3rd Battalion of the Regiment. However, I’m not sure the fact that the cap badge has loops (lugs) is as significant as you think. It is certainly true that ORs’ badges like this would be pre-1903, but as far as I was aware Officers’ S&G badges do normally have loops as opposed to other fittings - at least the other Leicesters ones I’ve seen have loops. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong about this. Anyway, I still think there is a good chance the badge in question is early, but I don’t believe this can be determined simply by it having loops I’m afraid.

Although it’s not that obvious from the photos, I assume that most of the gilding on the front has actually rubbed off? There also looks to be a fair bit of wear on the titles, especially the bottom ‘Leicestershire’ scroll, perhaps because of the way it has been cleaned in the past?? The badge also has what I would have thought was a quite unusual feature, and that is, when you look at it from the back, there is a substantial section of the bottom of the badge taken away, right in the middle of where the bottom title scroll goes across. I would have expected this to be solid, but perhaps this was the easiest way for this particular manufacturer to get a gap between the bottom title and the grassy base when looked at from the front?

I do realise that some of the above is just questions rather than answers, so I hope you don’t mind me sharing my observations with you. Taking of observing, I see your Leicestershire album has quite a few additions in it since I last looked, one of which is a particularly nice Territorial OSD badge. I’ve only seen a couple of these badges for the Leicesters, and sadly do not have one myself – you really must let me know your sources!! What’s intriguing about this is the north-south orientation of the blades, rather than the normal east-west. No doubt some other member will be able to enlighten us on why this was the case, but presumably it has something to do with the headgear upon which it was worn, and by extension the period?

Well, I’ll leave things there for now, and congratulations again on the recent purchases.

Best regards

Martin

[KLR]

It's good to see you back on the Forum Martin, your research and insights have been sorely missed.
I have heard that S&G badges have loops / lugs because the badge itself needs taking off the cap every so often to polish it - whereas bronze OSD badges have blades (which will not suffer constant bending and unbending) because they don't really need to be taken off a cap once on !

Yes, I've been wondering about NS versus EW (lugs and blades) - let alone three lugs; one NB and two EW below !
J

['Ticker' Riley]

Hello Julian

Many thanks for your kind words, of which I am wholly undeserving. It is good to be back on the Forum, though I can’t say how long this stay will last I’m afraid. I only wish I had more time to undertake research, especially looking through the records, but as you’ll know it’s never easy with work and everything. Oh, by the way, thank you for your Christmas message which I read yesterday!!

The idea of blades being used instead of loops on OSD badges, because of them not needing to be removed to be cleaned in the same way a S&G badge would, does seem sound enough, and I suppose blades offered a firmer fixing than loops and a pin. However I do have one silver Volunteer Battalion badge to the Leicesters with blades which, presumably, would have needed to be taken off and cleaned fairly regularly?

As to the north-south versus the east-west alignment, I really don’t know the answer to this but do wonder if it isn’t associated with a change of headgear for officers? The Leicestershire 1st Volunteer Battalion badge I’ve mentioned has its blades in the more usual east-west orientation, which means this was being used before 1908. I don’t have a comparable OSD badge for the Volunteers, so can’t say if they were using these badges with east-west blades from 1902, when I believe officers’ service dress came in, up until they became the Territorials.

Having said that, Dean’s Leicesters Territorials’ OSD badge, which now has north-south blades, appears to originally have had them set east-west. I am also aware of a white-metal ‘walking-out’ Territorials badge to the Leicesters, that I assume could have been worn from 1908 up to 1917 when the TF were ‘permitted’ to wear the same badges as the parent regiment, which similarly has north-south blades. Could there have been some kind of new officers’ hat which came in around 1908? It would be interesting to perhaps open this question up as a new thread, as I wouldn’t want to bog Alan and Dean’s thread down with this. Maybe Dean would be good enough to post up his Territorial OSD elsewhere to kick things off?

Anyway, as I say, I don’t have the answer to this, let alone where three blades fit into things, but I would think it must lie in the headgear being worn at different times.

Best regards

Martin

[mooke07]

Great to have your insightful posts thanks Martin and I second Julian in welcoming you back.

I too have trouble fitting in posts at times but we all try our best.

There is quite a bit of difference between both S&G Leicesters Officers cap badges I have in my Leicesters album so I have shown pics below alongside each other. The latest addition is heavily polished and the gilt just about all removed. My original Gaunt marked one is nicely gilded and quite curved presumably to fit the cap. Yes there is quite a gap on the rear of the bottom scroll that leaves a a gap between the grass plinth upon which the tiger stands and the bottom scroll.

Both are two piece with pins in exactly the same position. Both have flaws to the first E one below and one above curiously.

Like you Martin I do like my tigers and these two could be as far apart as an Indian and an African one!

Cheers Dean.