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  #31  
Old 10-08-11, 04:39 PM
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Ry, I think we're there - though I guess that metal (cap) badges designed to be worn on he FSH were superseded by what were probably the more practical "flashes" - there are official designations for flashes in the 2nd WW.

Graham, no apologies are necessary, I'm on a learning curve too, but starting with official records. I agree completely with certain ideas not working out. All I can say is that slidered HPCs were actually ordered (I've looked at WO tenders) and (as they physically exist) were produced. The same goes for the sockets.
(afwan ! - I spent 6 months working in Saudi back in 1985, though other Nr E parts intermittently since), J
Anyway, my brain is dulled by leaping back and forth between the 16th and 21st centuries.
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  #32  
Old 10-08-11, 06:53 PM
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No, I didn't say 'long slidered badges' (I mean 'long slidered HPCs') but yes, the sockets were specified for the slouch, there is no mention of them for the FSH. (I will go into much greater detail in a book one day !)
What is clear from your excellent photographs is that many badges are affixed to the helmet itself, above the puggaree. Photographs of the King's Regt in South Africa show them being worn like this.
Sorry, I was perhaps not being precise enough in this heated debate, I know that you meant HPCs, but I was thinking of them as 'badges' too and had not thought to differentiate. Clearly I should have done. Incidentally, although they were undoubtedly manufactured and regulated, in all my visits to military museums and private collections over the last 4 decades (especially infantry), I have never yet seen a single HPC, affixed (or otherwise), to a contemporary item of head dress. Puzzling!

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 11-08-11 at 02:41 AM.
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  #33  
Old 10-08-11, 07:06 PM
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This item may be the answer?

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ighlight=india

Andy
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  #34  
Old 10-08-11, 07:50 PM
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Last edited by Charlie585; 21-11-13 at 03:10 PM.
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  #35  
Old 10-08-11, 09:10 PM
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Yes, that's what I was thinking of (I've been corresponding with Tim about it !). Theres one in the NAM and in that Crown Imperial article that I cited somewhere. Originally made for the slidereed HPC but - as it appears - that never took off so it appears to have been used for other badges !!
sorted !
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  #36  
Old 10-08-11, 09:13 PM
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Last edited by Charlie585; 21-11-13 at 03:11 PM.
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  #37  
Old 10-08-11, 09:45 PM
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When did this brass socket actually appear first (is that known)?
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  #38  
Old 10-08-11, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by KLR View Post
Yes, that's what I was thinking of (I've been corresponding with Tim about it !). Theres one in the NAM and in that Crown Imperial article that I cited somewhere. Originally made for the slidereed HPC but - as it appears - that never took off so it appears to have been used for other badges !!
sorted !
54Bty has this fitting as being inside the RHA Busby as the Busby Plume Holder

Tim
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Slider Holder.jpg (46.8 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg Slider Holder (2).jpg (59.6 KB, 4 views)
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  #39  
Old 10-08-11, 10:20 PM
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54Bty has this fitting as being inside the RHA Busby as the Busby Plume Holder

Tim
thats odd.. my Busby has the normal screw nut fitting?
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  #40  
Old 11-08-11, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Charlie585 View Post
Well spotted Andy,

I think this is what we have all been looking for.

Toby,

As to your not having come accross one of these badges in use,I think this is probably best explained by Julian's opinion on the matter in that it seems that it was an experiment that never caught on, an expensive failure.

This would concur with Graham's statement rergarding equipment that was patented and not taken in to service.

Regards to all.

Ry
Yes Ry, precisely, I had long, long ago come to the conclusion that it "was not taken into service" and was just surprised that more others had not reached the same conclusions. There is a tendency by some to be blinded by regulations.
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  #41  
Old 11-08-11, 05:13 AM
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I think all who have taken part in this debate can congraulate themselves on discussing the subject in an orderly, well mannered fashion, virtually bringing it to a successful conclusion.

It does make you wonder, considering the lack of these badges in evidence, what happend to them? Were they simply returned to stores, with the odd one making it's way into a footlocker/kit back? Probably they were eventually destroyed, but who know's as the Clothing Department, was notorious for hoarding stuff. Remember all of that stuff that came into circulation years ago when these MOD departments were being wound down?

A very good friend of mine and brilliant military illustrator, Bob Marrion, once had the pleasure of visiting the Department that dealt with head dress and badges when they were still very active and was astonished to see them destroying Dragoon helmets with a guillotine(?).

Well done to all.
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  #42  
Old 11-08-11, 07:25 AM
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Absolutely fascinating, most of it went straight over my head but very interesting never the less, the ability to take information in and my powers of retention are waning but I'm sure I didn't see any response to my question, or was it considered inconsequential ??

Dave.
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  #43  
Old 11-08-11, 08:01 AM
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Last edited by Charlie585; 21-11-13 at 03:11 PM.
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  #44  
Old 11-08-11, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie585 View Post
Good morning Dave,

Those Scottish badges that you show certainly add to the conundrum and in my humble estimation, if they are genuine I could only guess at them being perhaps trial badges for the slouch hat possibly. Not very concisive of me I know.

Andy,

As for your slidered Camerons badge, I cant think of a reason for the traces of braze that are evident unless it originally had loops. Could it be possible that the slider was an adaptation carried out whilst in service for wear on a particular form of headdress, or has it been done to make the badge more attractive to the collectors market?

Ry
post-599-0-56870100-1310586506.jpg
For you Jock collecting fans with worries over your sliders, I present this wonderful and rare photo of a Gordon Highlander, actually wearing the glengarry badge with the FSH. The base of the badge nestling into the top intersection of the pagri. How was it fixed? - Well my gut feeling is that it was with the lugs, as a slider - due to the badges delicate construction, could very well cause the badge to snap at the antlers/head when inserted. By the end of the 1920's it would appear that nearly all of the Highland Regiments began adopting hackles or tartan with the FSH.
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  #45  
Old 11-08-11, 08:27 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie585 View Post
Good morning Dave,

Those Scottish badges that you show certainly add to the conundrum and in my humble estimation, if they are genuine I could only guess at them being perhaps trial badges for the slouch hat possibly. Not very concisive of me I know.

Andy,

As for your slidered Camerons badge, I cant think of a reason for the traces of braze that are evident unless it originally had loops. Could it be possible that the slider was an adaptation carried out whilst in service for wear on a particular form of headdress, or has it been done to make the badge more attractive to the collectors market?


Toby,

Yes, I can understand the inclination to take official documentation at face value. As we know, subsequent, trends bear a large impact in many instances, sometimes across the board, others by individual formations. An open mind is the key.

Graham,

As to your point regarding what happened to the badges, I would assume that large numbers were sent for scrap in the years following their demise, just the thing for 1916 economy badges or maybe .303 cases?

Regards to all.

Ry
Ry,
my feeling is that during the manufacture of my Camerons badge it started the production process destined to be lugged but left with a slider, I do not think it is a local i.e. "in unit" adaptation?

As for the Scottish slidered badges, I'm sure we had a perfectly logical explanation a year or so ago, I think it may have been Alan O? I think the answer was that they were for use in the FSH, the slider being more practical than trying to pierce holes to accommodate lugs?

Andy
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