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  #1  
Old 02-06-19, 08:42 PM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Default Printed Pegasus- Fine Weave Versions

It is widely accepted that Printed Pegasus, as many other insignias (see https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=72788), were produced using two type of cotton fabric (drill #2 cotton of coarse weave or a satin drill #2 cotton fine weave).

A pair of Pegasus was sold recently on EBay that was quite intriguing to me (see photo). I believe this pair, which I will call 2nd type, is genuine but its characteristics are quite different from a WW2 variant that is well documented in O. Lock's book. I've attached a photo of this last variant (1st type) for comparison (thanks to David Hiorth from militaryantiquestoronto.com)

Both types are printed on fine weave cotton but the 'ghosting' is definitely more pronounced on the second type. I'm wondering if this one wasn't produced in the early post war years. Thoughts?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fine Weave Pegasus 1st Type.jpg (104.3 KB, 96 views)
File Type: jpg Fine Weave Pegasus 2nd Type.jpg (109.8 KB, 97 views)
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  #2  
Old 06-06-19, 07:09 PM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Re-sold by Chairborne as WW2 type. I'm not convinced.
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  #3  
Old 07-06-19, 10:15 AM
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Careful his enforcer will be along shortly rattling on about defamation.
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  #4  
Old 09-06-19, 12:58 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Another pair that was identified as WW2 https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...rinted+pegasus
I'm still not convinced. Any opinion anyone?
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  #5  
Old 09-06-19, 03:11 PM
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What makes you wonder, is this an assumption, if so, what is it based upon, do you have reliable dating evidence for actual examples?

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Originally Posted by tcrown View Post

Both types are printed on fine weave cotton but the 'ghosting' is definitely more pronounced on the second type. I'm wondering if this one wasn't produced in the early post war years. Thoughts?
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  #6  
Old 09-06-19, 05:24 PM
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silverwash silverwash is offline
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funny thing, the mind. a provenanced WW2 example.
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  #7  
Old 10-06-19, 03:40 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
What makes you wonder, is this an assumption, if so, what is it based upon, do you have reliable dating evidence for actual examples?
The only two printed Pegasus on fine weave with WW2 provenance that I have in my documentation are provided by O. Lock and Ken Joyce in their books. Both have the slight ‘ghosting’ of the figure through the back of the patch (what I called Type 1 in my first post).
We all know that these patches were produced by a large number of printing firms belonging to the Calico Association during WW2. For that reason, several variations of patches have been recorded due to slight variations of both color and figure. It is also common knowledge that two type of cotton fabric were used in the manufacturing process but only one type of fine weave cotton (satin drill #2).
I have attached below a close up comparison of the fine weave Pegasus that are the object of the thread. We can clearly conclude the fabric used is not the same. This is the reason why I’m wondering if the second type (on the right hand side of the photo) wasn’t produced at a later time.

Thanks in advance for your contribution.
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File Type: jpg Fine Weave Comparison 2.jpg (76.1 KB, 42 views)
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  #8  
Old 10-06-19, 03:42 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverwash View Post
funny thing, the mind. a provenanced WW2 example.
Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, without seeing the back, we can't really conclude, can we?
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  #9  
Old 12-06-19, 07:11 AM
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What is the exact provenance in the books, what is the dating evidence and where did the actual badges come from?
I would have thought that differing batches of the same fabric and dyes, actually manufactured by differing companies, as well as differing printing blocks and pressure, would and did, produce variations given the very many thousands of badges made during the war and subsequently issued well afterwards to many soldiers.

It is all about actual evidence to date a particular badge, I do certainly have a number of printed examples, but, to be quite honest, I very much doubt that I would even have a handful that I can say were actually made before August 1945, I'll have a look in due course.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
The only two printed Pegasus on fine weave with WW2 provenance that I have in my documentation are provided by O. Lock and Ken Joyce in their books. Both have the slight ‘ghosting’ of the figure through the back of the patch (what I called Type 1 in my first post).
We all know that these patches were produced by a large number of printing firms belonging to the Calico Association during WW2. For that reason, several variations of patches have been recorded due to slight variations of both color and figure. It is also common knowledge that two type of cotton fabric were used in the manufacturing process but only one type of fine weave cotton (satin drill #2).
I have attached below a close up comparison of the fine weave Pegasus that are the object of the thread. We can clearly conclude the fabric used is not the same. This is the reason why I’m wondering if the second type (on the right hand side of the photo) wasn’t produced at a later time.

Thanks in advance for your contribution.
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  #10  
Old 13-06-19, 11:20 PM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
What is the exact provenance in the books, what is the dating evidence and where did the actual badges come from?
I would have thought that differing batches of the same fabric and dyes, actually manufactured by differing companies, as well as differing printing blocks and pressure, would and did, produce variations given the very many thousands of badges made during the war and subsequently issued well afterwards to many soldiers.
Frank, I do agree that no one can have a definite answer about whether wartime or post war these badges can be.
The dyes variants of the most common Pegasus (coarse weave) were discussed in this thread https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=64777
I don't see too much difference in the fabric utilized for the "coarse weave" type. All the examples of this type that I've seen have pretty much the same fabric pattern.
It looks like it's not the case at all on the fine weave version and I have difficulties to admit that this can be explained by differing batches of the same fabric.
Other opinions appreciated.
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  #11  
Old 23-06-19, 02:42 PM
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Having now looked at all the examples here, I have nine differing types of printed Pegasus, but, of those, there would be only four individual examples that I can say, with a degree of certainty, that would be pre August 1945.
Without actually knowing the exact date of manufacture of any particular badge, there are too many variables, fabrics, dyes, absorption and so forth, very clearly, it is pointless to merely speculate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrown View Post
Frank, I do agree that no one can have a definite answer about whether wartime or post war these badges can be.
The dyes variants of the most common Pegasus (coarse weave) were discussed in this thread https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=64777
I don't see too much difference in the fabric utilized for the "coarse weave" type. All the examples of this type that I've seen have pretty much the same fabric pattern.
It looks like it's not the case at all on the fine weave version and I have difficulties to admit that this can be explained by differing batches of the same fabric.
Other opinions appreciated.
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  #12  
Old 25-06-19, 12:50 AM
tcrown tcrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
Having now looked at all the examples here, I have nine differing types of printed Pegasus, but, of those, there would be only four individual examples that I can say, with a degree of certainty, that would be pre August 1945.
Without actually knowing the exact date of manufacture of any particular badge, there are too many variables, fabrics, dyes, absorption and so forth, very clearly, it is pointless to merely speculate
If you focus just on fabric, assuming your four examples have been printed on fine weave material, what type of ‘ghosting’ do you see on the back?
Would you mind sharing a few pics?
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