Derbyshire hpc

[GTB]

I was of the belief that the attached is an officers silver & gilt Victorian Derbshire Regt hpc, but lately I'm not too sure. I won't mention why, as I would welcome any comments from more knowledgeable members.
Two loops to rear, one repaired

GTB

[dubaiguy]

Sherwood Foresters (Derbyshire) Regiment glengarry. Post 1881. I can't make out the metals. Are you sure it is silver and gilt. If not, then it would be an OR's bi-metal. Even the OR's can look spectacular.
Mark

[GTB]

Originally Posted by dubaiguy

Sherwood Foresters (Derbyshire) Regiment glengarry. Post 1881. I can't make out the metals. Are you sure it is silver and gilt. If not, then it would be an OR's bi-metal. Even the OR's can look spectacular.
Mark

Thanks for that info. K&K is purported to be the badge collector's bible but apparently some chapter and verse has been omitted i.e. 1881-95 glengarry badges.
I cannot be 100% sure of the metals but I am now leaning towards a possible OR's item. Defining the metals is not all plainsailing: the Cross looks silver - at least it has the blackened patina, especially at the rear, applicable to tarnished silver; and it took up a beautiful silver shine when I polished a small part. However, there is no silver assay mark. Should there be? The gilt/brass is also difficult to pinpoint. All things considered, as you say, a spectacular ORs badge if it is that!
A question: did all officers' glengarries and hpc's have gilt scrolls? As can be seen my version has scrolls die-struck from same metal as Cross.

GTB

[dubaiguy]

Hi GTB

Dean (aka Mooke07) may be help you more than me. He has a fine collection of Derbyshire badges that can be seen in the Album section. You might find answers to some of your questions in there.

Here is a bi-metal OR’s for you to compare the reverse with yours.

Mark

[mooke07]

Hi GTB,

Thanks for posting your OR's Derbyshire glengarry badge. The cross and scrolls are WM and the laurel wreath is GM. Officers versions are silver, gilt and enamel. Not all Officers silver badges are hallmarked BTW, the majority were private purchase items.

Here is a link to my album that Mark has referred to with a number of similar badges and a reversed metal 4th militia battalion example.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...id=2618&page=2

Cheers Dean.

[GTB]

Hi Mark, Dean.
Many thanks for your assistance and also for a stunning album. The more we learn, the more questions there are to answer.
I am still not 100% sure about mine but will get there eventually. As a point of interest, its sole remaining original loop is also white, possibly plated.

I have a couple of Foresters bits and pieces, and am attaching 2 CBs for your interest: QVC gm and KC OSD with loops. I should have a brooched badge somewhere but its playing hide and seek, as virtually all my collection does.

GTB

[mooke07]

Thanks GTB,

The collars are both good. Indeed the top one is QVC circa 1881 with Derbyshire scroll, pair of loops I would think. The lower KC version is with bottom Notts & Derby scroll and will either have a single central loop for an early issue post 1903 or two loops for the later version. I don't actually have the non-voided version KC OSD only the voided.

Thanks for sharing and your glengarry badge is a quality badge and if the loop is white metal or plated then it may not be an OR's version possibly a silver plated NCO's as generally the loops are GM on the OR version. Saying that Mark's OR version has WM loops so without seeing your badge in the hand I couldn't definitively tell, cheers Dean.

[GTB]

Dean,
I will have to see about getting a couple of clear photos of badge front & rear as scanning not too good.
The extant loop is wm/plated.

Both collars have 2 copper loops E-W.

Found the brooched badge. Actually it is the w/m part of an OR's cap badge (minus brass/gm lower scroll, and minus slider too, naturally). Makes a nice sweetheart item, I would think.

I notice your album has no buttons. Is this intentional?

GTB

[mooke07]

Hi GTB,

Thanks for confirming the loop positioning on your collar badges.

Yes I have seen the Maltese Cross part of infantry badges which has been converted to a broach fitting for a sweetheart badge. There are collars that were broached and worn as side cap/forage cap badges, there are a couple in my Derbyshire album. So please post a scan so I can see what yours is.

I do have buttons and one rainy day I will get them photographed and added to all my albums, badges are my main interest, cheers Dean.

[GTB]

Hi Dean,

Yes, my brooched KC badge very much resembles your QVC version, with obvious indications as to where the brass lower scroll abutted. I suppose mine could also be an fc badge, considering there is no enamelling as usually ascribed to sweethearts?

I am unsure if you are only limited to the Infantry badges but I suppose you may also collect to the county Yeomanry also? I have a couple of shoulder titles, nothing spectacular and sadly bearing effects of the fragility of these highly interesting and collectible memorabilia.
Am posting my 2nd Bn s/t. I classify it as c. 1896, considering the use of brass rather than g/m. Comparison between both can clearly be seen from my scans.
The Derbyshire Yeomanry (Westlake 272) has lost the top part of the 'Y', and the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry (Westlake 220) the bar of the 'T'.

GTB

[mooke07]

Thanks for sharing more badge pics GTB,

The 2 Derby title I like of course as I have one to match it. The term Gilding Metal (GM) is used generally to describe shoulder titles of this and later periods - often referred to as brass of course. There are many threads on this topic.

The broached badge bears the slider stub so indeed is the top half of a Notts and Derby KC cap badge. It tells a story for sure.

So do your territorial and yeomanry titles. I like them just the same.

Like many I collect generally and only some are in my albums, cheers Dean.

[GTB]

Originally Posted by mooke07

It tells a story for sure.

So do your territorial and yeomanry titles. cheers Dean.

Quite right. I expect that the vast majority of mutilated or 'amended' insignia have a story to tell.

Referring to the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry, I am theorising that the 'T' could have been deliberately altered by a zealous member of the 1st SRY, in such a way as to turn the letter into the numeral '1'. Everything's possible. In fact, the 'T' doesn't have accidental damage but rather, the two upper wings have been "surgically" removed. All three loops are still extant, including behind the 'T'. Plausible!

GTB

[davidwyke]

Hi GTB

Re the 2/Derby S/T. They were introduced for wear on KD while the 2nd Bn was stationed in India.

They left India in 1898 and were subsequently stationed in Aden & Malta. They may have continued wearing the S/T during this period but probably not.

They returned to the UK in 1902 and wore a cloth S/T on the new service dress until the metal "Notts & Derby" titles were brought in from 1907.

David

[GTB]

Hi Dave
Thanks for yr input.

2nd Bn arrived Malta in October 1899 and departed in May 1902. Several members of the Bn are buried on the Island.
The s/t was acquired locally, so it could very well have been worn here.

GTB

[davidwyke]

As to whether the S/T was worn when they were on Malta probably depends on whether they would have worn KD uniforms there or not. I didn't think they would have but I'm sure you know more about that than me.

Either way, it sounds like they brought their "Indian" S/'T's with them!

David