Any ideas please - Seaforth Highlanders?

[Jeff Mc William]

David. Hang on a minute..we seem to be drifting off at a tangent here. Let's "stick to the point" as you would say.
At the risk of repeating myself, I shall now summarise the evidence supporting my case re the identity of Ian's badge :
(1) The letter F (for Frederick Duke of York & Albany) has been associated with the 72nd Foot since 1825, and was borne on many of the regimental accoutrements..including the Colours since that date. And, although in 1884, this was replaced by the letter L (for Leopold, Duke of Albany), the letter F was still carried on the new Colours and on some items of the piper's wear (eg the Plaid broach) until the final amalgamations in 1994. FACT.

(2) The war cry "Cabar Feidh" has always been associated with the Seaforths. FACT
(The photo of the badge from the Lucas collection(my posting #21, 1st Sept) includes both the letter F and the Seaforths war cry. It is identical to Ian's except for the missing cypher)

(3) According to Angus Fairrie, this motto/battle cry was used with the stag's head on the officers badges of the 72nd from about 1870 to 1881, but alas, this seems to be the "sticking point".
I must say, your attempts to discredit Colonel Fairrie are, to put it mildly, totally unwarranted and bang out of order ! I wonder, how do you know that his claims are "unsubstatiated" ?
After all, he was the curator of the Queens Own Highlanders Museum for over 20 years and must have had unlimited access to the vast records that they hold..and I am sure he would have made very good use of them.

(4)You speak of "proof" but what definite proof is there that any of the badges depicted in K&K, Carman, or Bloomer's books were ever worn on the glengarry ? Very few I suspect. Or would you class them amoung the "bus loads of people" giving their opinions ? No, one just has to accept the provenance,regimental records, and evidence supplied by these well respected experts while bearing in mind that badge collecting is not an exact science or a court of law. Regards Jeff

Jeff - I believe that the best policy on this one is for you to go your way - and I will go mine. It is clear that we are not going to agree and I am getting a bit tired of flogging dead horses. However, if you ever come up with a uniform item bearing this badge, please let me know and I will be the first to admit that you were right all along - can't say fairer than that, can I ? Enough, I think. Regards. David

[Jeff Mc William]

Ian. Congratulations on a rare and fantastic "find" ! My advice to you now (if you don't want to keep it) is to have your badge authenticated by the Queens Own Highlanders Museum, then you can offer it to Bosleys, Wallis & Wallis, or sell it to the museum if you wish. In any event, I don't think you will be dissapointed with the result. Best wishes, goodbye, and good luck. Jeff

[Peter Brydon]

Just a final thought, does anyone have the catalogue for the sale of the Arthur Strutt collection of Scottish Military badges, sold by DNW on 28/2/2000, might be worth checking in that.


P.B.

PB - Yes ! And there is no such lot. Regards. David

[Peter Brydon]

David,

This post needs putting to rest once and for all, but as a simple badge collector you seem to be suggesting that no insignia of the Seaforths ever bore the motto "Caber Feidh".

Firstly my apologies if I have misunderstood what you are saying but what about the collar badges on the attached pictures ?

P.B.

PB - I realise there are a lot of posts on this thread but you clearly haven't read them all - including mine ! The issue of collar badges has never been raised and the specific issue of this thread (as I understand it) is whether or not the motto was ever used in conjunction with the stag's head ? That was the nature of the first post and I, for one, have tried to stick with that. I have had my say on that question and, unless you have evidence to the contrary, that is where I am staying. Regards. David

[Jeff Mc William]

David. You are unbelievable. Your post #24, 2nd Sept ; and I quote "..absolutely no evidence exists-anywhere-to substatiate the use of this disputed motto by any British regiment.."
I rest my case Jeff

Jeff - You seem determined to flog this one to death ! Thank you for taking me out of context on 2 September - we were debating the badge in question - a stags head with motto below - of course I am aware of the collar badge example (I have had many through my hands - including those in Bill Dear's collection) but we were not discussing that. So, before resting your case, please answer me this one : Why would a line infantry regiment abandon its long-established regimental motto in favour of a subordinate war cry ? The question is fundemental and requires a considered argument, not an emotive one. So, authors aside - give me a considered opinion on that specific question, please. In anticipation. David

[Jeff Mc William]

CABAR FEIDH : My thanks to PB for his images of the 1881-1961 Seaforth collars. (posting #36, 5th Sept.) There is also Ian's button c.1859-1908. (posting #27, 3rd Sept) And here are some more quotes from David ;
(1) "For the 72nd to have worn this motto, the badge must date from before 1825.." (posting #8, 29th Aug)
(2) "..where is the evidence to support the use of this motto? " (posting #15, 30th Aug)
(3) "..Now if someone wants to come up with a single item of uniform accoutrement linking this motto to the 72nd then I will gladly concede.." (posting #18, 30th Aug)

This hole is getting deeper now David..what are you using..a JCB ?!

Jeff - Stick to the badge at issue - and answer the question I put in my previous posting - unless a considered opinion can't be mustered ! By the way, the collar badges are not 72nd - they are Seaforth Highlanders. Try to be academic in your argument rather than emotional and stick to Ian's original question. regards. David

[Jeff Mc William]

72F Afghanistan 1878-9.jpg David. Throughout the length of this long and weary (tho' interesting) forum, I think the following points are now well established and proved even to your own sceptical satisfaction :

(1) The letter F is associated with the 72nd Foot & later Seaforths
(2) The motto "Cabar Feidh" is associated with the 72nd Foot & later Seaforths
(3) The Stag's head is associated with both the 72nd,78th, & later Seaforths.

The Lucas badge (my posting #21, 1st Sept) has all three of the above, and Ian's badge has two of them (posting #1&2, 24th Aug).
So, on what basis can you then so confidently say that they are NOT 72nd/Seaforths ?!
You ask re the 72nd ; "..what happened to its motto?.." (your posting #15, 30th Aug) Answer, it was incorporated with the 78th's after amalgamation in 1881 and was borne on the collars of the Seaforths. (PB's posting #36, 5th Sept, also Chichester & Burges-Short pp742-756). And, incidently, may I remind you that the title of the Regimental Journal is also "Cabar Feidh".
As for the Stag's head, take a look at the icon above, it shows a group of officers of the 72nd in Afghanistan c.1878-9. The stag's head is on their glengarry caps. For the 78th, the Stag's head as a glengarry badge is specified in the 1874 Dress Regs.
OK, I won't say "I rest my case" on this one, but 'crumbs' mate..I can't imagine how you can continue to dispute the overwhelming weight of evidence opposed to your own 'dodgy' stance. Anyway, please let me know when you get a reply from the QOH Museum. That should be interesting. Regards. Jeff

Jeff - Now we are getting somewhere ! I concur with all 3 of the enumerated points you make. Yes - the Lucas illustration and Ian's illustration show a combination of stag and the disputed motto. What we DO NOT have is confirmation that this badge was ever worn by the 72nd, the 78th or the post 1881 Seaforth Highlanders. To try to bring the debate to a final tumult, I have asked a colleague at the National Army Museum to do an in depth search of the question : Did the 72nd, the 78th or the post 1881 Seaforth Highlanders ever wear, in any context, a head-dress badge of the stag and Cabar Feidh motto, with or without cypher and/or crown ? I think that covers the essence of our argument - or have I missed anything ? By the way, I am currently looking at a glengarry badge of a stag's head, motto Bydand within a garter - it's on eBay. However, it is not a military badge - it is a clan badge of the Gordon Clan. Every component of the item suggests military - it is listed as military - but military IT IS NOT ! Get my drift ? Let us wait and see the outcome of the search at the NAM. Regards. David

[Jeff Mc William]

OK David, I will call a truce on this and await the findings of the QOH Museum and of your colleague in the NAM. But, before I go, just a thought ; With regard to the photo of the officers of the 72nd in Afghanistan c.1878-9 in my last posting ; What do you think it is logical to assume was inscribed on the scroll under the Stag's head badges ? I doubt if it would have been "Cuidich'n Righ" since this was the motto of the 78th, and NOT the 72nd. This would also mean that the 72nd and the 78th wore an identical cap badge prior to 1881. (I have thought about this..it is possible I suppose.) The 78th had "Cuidich'n Righ" on their Colours and appointments but,again, NOT the 72nd. (see my posting #25, 3rd Sept plus any Army List from 1825 to 1880). Anyway, lets see what the "experts" come up with. Regards. Jeff
PS: Yes, I "get your drift" re the "Bydand" badge, but in our case there is a third badge, ie that found amoung the effects of Col Clarke 72nd Foot (identical to Ian's badge) which strongly indicates a military item.

Jeff - I have never doubted that badges incorporating stags head and Cabar Feidh exist - only that they were ever worn by a military unit. The examples, beginning with Ian's are clearly genuine badges but there is nothing to authenticate them as military - this has been my point throughout. Just as soon as I hear from QOH and NAM I will, believe me, publish the findings on this thread. Regards. David