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#1
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Pioneers hanger or ?????????
Any assistance in correctly identifying the item and country of origin of the item ( which I wont be keeping ) would be much appreciated.
Thanks P.B.
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Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )” |
#2
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Peter,
These short swords originate, I believe from France and are commonly described as Bandsmen swords although I have never seen one with the saw back edge. There seems no reason for this saw back for a Bandsman and as you say the obvious use would be for a Pioneer. Will take a look through my books and attempt an identification of the Arsenal marks. Simon. |
#3
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Hello Peter
Judging from the shape of the blade, particularly the end, I think it may be a Russian Model 1847 Artillery Short Sword. Although an 'artillery' sword this model had the saw-back blade more typical of 'pioneer' swords. If you Google Russian 1847 Artillery Sword you will find similar examples. Problem is that there were earlier patterns and all of these were copies of very similar French swords, so it might be an earlier model, a French version or a some other country's copy of the French version! Hopefully we have a continental sword expert somewhere on the Forum! Roger |
#4
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I have one of these gladius style hangers (without the saw teeth), Ive never worked out if it's 19th century French (1835 pattern?) Or Russian.
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#5
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The basic design of this item is based on the 1831 pattern French short sword and as Roger has stated was the basis for the Russian Artillery sword, I think it will come down to identifying the Blade and Hilt markings for a positive identification. Would Russian swords of this era have Cyrillic Alphabet marks I wonder?
Simon. |
#6
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Thanks Simon,Roger and Leigh
Peter
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )” |
#7
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I think that Fatboy Ken would have the answer to this.
If I remember it is a French sword, captured in large amounts from the Battle of Waterloo and issued to the Waggoneers of the Transport columns . As I said Ken will know(I hope)
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JERRY ROYAL ENGINEERS/BRITISH ARMY CORPS & SERVICES/BRITISH LEGION/ROYAL BRITISH LEGION (see albums) |
#8
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As I remember (memory may be at fault) this hanger (sans sawback) is of a pattern introduced by the French in the 1830's -but then again, the same pattern was later used by the Russians.
In French use it replaced the similar 1816 pattern which had fish scale patterned instead of a ringed grip. http://swordscollection.blogspot.com...-1831.html?m=1 Last edited by leigh kitchen; 17-08-18 at 11:35 AM. Reason: Link added. |
#9
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I can't locate photos of my non-sawback version, not that they'd add much to the discussion.
The only mention I've seen of the Russian sawback version: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=592246 |
#10
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I'm not a sword collector but I have seen 10 or more variations of this theme in my travels. Most European powers copied the French and used them as sidearms to look martial. The American type is particulaly well made.
I have always assumed that the first (and now perhaps the most common) was the Napoleonic French "coup choux" which does not seem to have been any use in combat and was eventually discarded with the triangular bayonet retained. There is an historic picture from the Penal settlement in Port Arthur Tasmania which indicated that they may have been purchased and used by the guards before 1867 (with Austrian cav carbines!) The British brass hilted Lancaster bayonet of 1858 was designed as a sidearm as well as a practical bayonet, and were carried by the NSW Medical Staff Corps as late as 1898 when long obsolete. |
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