SAC cap badge without crown

[Charterhouse.ca]

I've had the gilted officer's cap badge for a while and just assumed that the crown was broken off. However, I recently purchased a similar "silver" badge.

I've now taken a much closer look and have changed my mind. It appears that both badges were originally made without the crown. Plus, the back "lugs" are totally different.

Can anyone help? I'm thinking that these may have been used as the Constabulary was transitioning to their civilian roles circa 1907/08.

Thanks!

[Phil2M]

I would suggest they are from belt buckles

[Charterhouse.ca]

Thanks for the help. Are there any pictures what the belt might have looked like and/or how these would have been placed?

[Phil2M]

I am only putting two and two together and maybe making five. I imagine something like the one below, but with a pin through the eyelets instead of the solder. I am not a SAC expert and especially not one on belts, its just a sort of educated guess

[Milmed]

I doubt very much whether these are for belt buckles.

These are sand cast and not official UK manufactured badges as most SAC badges were. Whether they are period pieces should be the question?

If they are, then my guess would be the central device placed within the circle of the original SAC Victorian crown badge (the one that had a large gapping hole. Try to fit your cast badge without crown into one of these early badges. I suspect it would be a good fit.

Steven

[Charterhouse.ca]

Thanks Steven. That's a definite possiblity.

The small badge does fit nicely into the center of the 1st issue Queens badge. However, then the "South African Constabulary" would be duplicated. Also, it was my understanding that in the centre was the Division's letter, i.e. a C or E.

Possibly this was a short time "fix" between the 1st & 2nd issues.

[Phil2M]

Maybe made for a piece of leather equipment, like a horse furniture, crossbelt or pouch.

[Milmed]

Originally Posted by Charterhouse.ca

Thanks Steven. That's a definite possiblity.

The small badge does fit nicely into the center of the 1st issue Queens badge. However, then the "South African Constabulary" would be duplicated. Also, it was my understanding that in the centre was the Division's letter, i.e. a C or E.

Possibly this was a short time "fix" between the 1st & 2nd issues.

Yes possibly a short term fix before issue of KC badges. I have seen a few QVC badges with the center device in place of letters.

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by Milmed

These are sand cast and not official UK manufactured badges as most SAC badges were.

If they are, then my guess would be the central device placed within the circle of the original SAC Victorian crown badge (the one that had a large gapping hole.

Originally Posted by Charterhouse.ca

The small badge does fit nicely into the center of the 1st issue Queens badge. However, then the "South African Constabulary" would be duplicated. Also, it was my understanding that in the centre was the Division's letter, i.e. a C or E.

Possibly this was a short time "fix" between the 1st & 2nd issues.

Not my area but I do enjoy puzzles !

Q: Which came first the round badge or the QVC one ?

Is it possible that the round badges were produced "locally" as an interim measure (for local recruited staff) until 'proper' ones could be sourced from Britain.

NB. - I've seen photos of a round SAC medical branch badge with no crown and South African Constabulary around the central red cross.

Q : Could the 'hole' in the QVC badge have been designed to "accommodate" the round badge rather than the other way round ?

As 'local' recruits could have already had the round badge the QVC could have fitted over it. There is an example of a QVC badge with a red/white enamel cross 'insert' (?) , which would have solved the problem of the duplication of the title.

These would have been replaced after a very short time (due to Queen''s death) with the newer KC versions which would have been supplied to recruits from Britian etc.


I'm probably way off the mark but it is something to consider.


.

[Charterhouse.ca]

First, I want to thank everyone for their input & ideas.

Mike_vee: I believe that the QVC badge predates these small circulary ones. From what I know, the SAC's official logo with the lion was not used until maybe late 1901 (I assume they needed approval for the design). I have two SAC letters from Baden-Powell, and have seen a couple others. In 1900 and up to May 1901, the letterhead was plain. By early 1902 they had official stationary, with the full logo.

I think that the answer will come based on the style of the back "lugs".

I am not a military collector and have very little knowledge on badges, etc. I'm only interested in the SAC because of it's ties to B-P and eventually the Boy Scouts.