Fake Anodised Aluminium Scottish Cap Badges

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

Chris,
Just to make a very quick point about the re-strike Scottish Anodised badges. From my own observations, I'm guessing that lots of these are possibly made for pipe bands and probably also loyalist flute bands in Northern Ireland. I've seen many of these bands wearing lots of different badges over the years, mainly Scottish regiments, as well as Royal Ulster Rifles as well. Never got close enough to have a good look and examine any closely, but would certainly give it an educated guess. I would say IMO that that would be a fairly substantial market for such items.

Cheers

John

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Chrisr

Hi Chris,

Conversely, you may well be correct and I heartily congratulate you on the work you are doing regarding anodised aluminium (a/a) badges, although I am curious as to why you don't want to give up the three reasons.

Chrisr

Hi Chris,

I have just recieved a badge from the UK that I will use tomorrow to back up my thoughts together with a sealed pattern Gordons and an almost solid backed HLI KC. Note though that I am not labelling all Scottish A+S, Gordon Highlanders (just the "BY DAND" two word version) and have even produced a good rear KOSB badge so from my collection so have no problem with this variant of KOSB.

Remember I am only calling the 'mirror' reverse detail badges as fake and have called on five particular ones to see if they come in non-'mirror' reverse detail badges. The badges I have on my web site are all 'mirror' reverse detail badges and at this stage have no problem with those that are not 'mirror' reverse datails.

I have been sent a photo of a semi-hollowback Highland Light Infantry (The Glasgow Highlanders) so the list is now down to four badges only. The sender hopefully will post this badge soon.

Regarding the Cameronian and HLI (KC) that you have raised - I have photos of these in almost solid backed style and some semi-hollowback styles so have no problems with these. I do have an issue with the HLI (QC) that you have also raised and I agree any 'mirror' Black Watch is dodgy too.

The type of reverse to the badge is not dependant on timeline but on the amount of obverse relief of the badge together with the thickness of alumium sheet used. A 14/21st Lancers has a high degree of obverse relief hence is hollowback, A Green Howards badge has little obverse relief hence is flat backed. A flat reverse or punch die is cheaper to make than one a 'mirror' reverse die so why make it if not required especially to the detail of a 'mirror' reverse die? I will answer this tomorrow - knowing the manufacturing processes of anodised and non-anodised badges is required and is something that I believe few collectors have considered as this is the key to identifying a fake from a 'good-un'.

Chris, I will get some thoughts on why I think these 'mirror' reverse die badges are fake tomorrow but remember initial brief of this thread was to:

A) Create a web page of 'mirror' reverse die Scottish badges and alert members of this forum that there may well be problems with these badges.

B) Request examples of five specific badges (one of which has been supplied) to see if they were ever supplied as non 'mirror' reverse die types.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Faugh-A-Ballagh

Chris,
Just to make a very quick point about the re-strike Scottish Anodised badges. From my own observations, I'm guessing that lots of these are possibly made for pipe bands and probably also loyalist flute bands in Northern Ireland. I've seen many of these bands wearing lots of different badges over the years, mainly Scottish regiments, as well as Royal Ulster Rifles as well. Never got close enough to have a good look and examine any closely, but would certainly give it an educated guess. I would say IMO that that would be a fairly substantial market for such items.

Cheers

John

Thanks John,

I would never have considered this and it does point to a sizable market as you say - do you think that the requirement is still there or could any excess have been bought up by eBay dealers?

Regards

Chris

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

Chris,
Not too sure, but I know it certainly pre-dates ebay and the internet. I'm sure if you looked up some pipers suppliers you'll see stuff there which you have i/d'd

Hope this was of small help

John

[Alan O]

I would be wary about writing off any Inf badges from units that went in 1958.
The York and Lancaster and the Cameronians was worn by cadets long after 1968 and the Royal Scottish Fusiliers and HLI QC were worn by TA Coys up to 1968. It is in the 1968 edition of Maj Edwards' book.

It is important to know what units were not wearing a/a badges in 1958 (My reckoning is that this includes East and West Yorkshires, Suffolks, East Surreys, Beds and Herts, to name a few) and did NOT have TA/Cadet/TAVR III successors who had a/a badges in the 'old' designs. The badges made for TA/Cadets etc include the Royal Leicestershires and others as well as those mentioned above.

As far as badges being made for commercial sale goes - it was certainly done by the big companies. Until recently there was a store near me that had boxes of a/a badges for sale at £5 each. These included ACC, RAMC, SAS, R Hants and Royal Scots Greys. All bought from the supplier and identical to ones made for the MOD. Twenty years ago Bovington Tank Musuem had boxes of a/a badges for sale in their shop as well. The real question is whether old designs have been revived by a firm not using old stock or dies. In my opinion despite what has been said about the cost, they have been.

There is no real money to be made in reproducing Argylles/KOSB or BW badges with the costs of making new dies and starting up production but they are all found with mirror image dies. I can only presume that these are as supplied to the MOD.

When some a/a badges are going for £30-80 there is certainly incentive to make up a 9 Lancers, Fife and Forfar yeo or a R Warwickshire one. The fact that these are made with the same 'mirror' dies does cause concern that this is a modern process and therefore these badges are not contemporary.

I have an Argylles which is made this way that came off a Jock's TOS and was an issue item. I personally removed it from the TOS and one of the lug'sfeet is coming away from the badge due to wear. This is without doubt a GENUINE issue cap badge. This suggests modern manufature (but for MOD order) and thus suggests that the older designs are of modern manufacture as well. As`an aside the black version was a private purchase badge and not made for the MOD.

Alan

[ukbrits]

Hi Chris,
Here are some pics of a Glasgow Highlanders (H.L.I ) anodised aluminium bonnet badges you requested.

1. Picture 1 shows a "mirror back" badge on the left with a "semi hollow" backed version on the right.
2. Picture2 shows reverse pic of the semi hollow backed version
3. Picture3 angled view of the Glasgow Highlanders semi hollow badge.

The semi hollow backed version was purhased in the early 1970's.

Hope this helps.
ukbrits

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I would be wary about writing off any Inf badges from units that went in 1958.
The York and Lancaster and the Cameronians was worn by cadets long after 1968 and the Royal Scottish Fusiliers and HLI QC were worn by TA Coys up to 1968. It is in the 1968 edition of Maj Edwards' book.

Alan

You can add the RMLI badge into this area as well.Another point to add,i was wondering what badge Wellington school or college are wearing now.Im not sure which one it was but they were just in the process of changing over to wearing the DWR capbadge.I got about 15 old badges from the at the time.Are they now wearing a Yorks regt badge or a DWR badge? Your quote could be recycled Alan,in 20 years people will ask why a certain badge is still common although the regular regiment was disbabnded.The Mercian badge goes the other way,it was worn by the brigade and then was worn by the TA volunteers until they were rebadged to their appropriate regular regiment.

[Alan O]

Mike,

The Somerset one (College?) are wearing a private purchase metal badge - it is sort of anodised but not true anodised aluminium. The other one 'up
North' I am unsure about but I presume DWR as they are so easy to get hold of.

The RMLI one is as you know a Cadet band as the real RMLI stopped wearing that design in 1922.
Alan

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I have an Argylles which is made this way that came off a Jock's TOS and was an issue item. I personally removed it from the TOS and one of the lug'sfeet is coming away from the badge due to wear. This is without doubt a GENUINE issue cap badge. This suggests modern manufature (but for MOD order) and thus suggests that the older designs are of modern manufacture as well. As`an aside the black version was a private purchase badge and not made for the MOD.

Alan

Hi Guys,

Alan here may well have caused me to re-think certain aspects of this and I may well be looking for a towel to get some of the egg of my face - but that is the way we learn.

This A+S badge that he posted has certainly taken some of the wind out of my sails but lets look at what I have to say on the subject re: 'mirror' hollow back Scottish badges.

There will be a few postings here while I build up what I have to say so could members wait until I state that I have finished before commenting - I may be some time writing them.

Part 1.
=====

The issue of these badges has been a worry to me for some time especially in regard to the Highland Light Infantry 'King' and 'Queen' crown versions.

The two that I have both have lugs found on LB&B Co Ltd badges. The HLI ceased active active service in 1958 although Alan says they went up to as TA items to 1968. The LB&B did not start up shop until 1973.

The style of the badge in material used and finish is also the same as my Royal Highland Fusiliers (Pipers) this time with lugs I have still not 100% identified but believed to be used on badges made by Gaunt.

Following that if these HLI are fake due to the timeline of active service and timeline of manufacture then the RHF(Pipers) is also fake as it is so similar in construction and finish.

Taking this further and noting that there were a lot of 'mirror' finish badges out there then if these the three previously described are fake then so are the rest especially if a non 'mirror' hollow back, semi-hollowback or flat backed badge also existed for a particular unit.

See attached photos of HKI (KC). One shows a hollowback (not 'mirror' hollowback) and the other an almost semi-flatback badge. The style of the badge is also different to the 'mirror' version.

The hollowback came with lugs from either Smith & Wright badges or early Firmin badges post 1972 when they took over S+W. I believe though, that this badge is very early S+W manufacture.

The almost semi-flat back badge unfortunately came without lugs but I still believe it to be of early manufacture.

The reverse dies used in these badges needs to be commented on here. Pre anodised metal badges are made from thin sheet blank and are manufactured by die stamping. Due to the thin nature of the blank the reverse die needs to mirror the obverse to a large extent to ensure that the obverse detail is captured with the reverse or 'punch' die when forcing the thin blank sheet into all the obverse dies nooks and corners. As such, the reverse die has to mimic or 'mirror' the obverse die.

Looking at anodised badges - the aluminium sheet is thicker and as such there is no reason to have a reverse die to have to work so hard to get the metal into the obverse dies details. A general outline is all that is required. Look at some good badges in your collection and you should see what I mean.

To make a mirror reverse die is much more expensive than a non 'mirror' die so, for use in aluminium examples. such detail is neither required at a manufacturing level or, an accounting level.

[hagwalther]

Part 2
=====

I have recently been sent a sealed pattern card of the Gordon Highlanders "BYDAND" single word cap badge as attached.

This is what I would call a semi-hollow back badge with lots of solid area but with the general outline of the relief of the badge easily visible.

This badge was sealed during the Brigade era 13 May 1966, Pattern number 19530.

I have a few other sealed patterns to check and more on the way but from what I can see so far (and again I may be proved wrong) none of the pattern cards are 'mirror' finish items.

Granted, the sealed pattern is not an absolute model for all badges for a particular unit as different companies may have made the same unit badge using different dies but, it does point to the fact that that non 'mirror' reverse die badges were not originally used in genuine authentic, official issue badges.

[hagwalther]

Part 3A
======

The attached images are very important and I want members here to study them closely.

Again, I will break up this part of the post to enable ease of reading.

First photos are of a brass version of the "BY DAND" Gordons. As you all know, I have no knowledge whatsoever of non anodised badges but I am reliable informed that this badge is a fake.

If it is genuine then my case starts to fall away somewhat but even so, there will still be an aspect of interest to the anodised collectors.

[hagwalther]

Part 3B
=====

Here is an anodised example of the same badge.

It is very similar and members out there should take the time to study all four photos for similarities.

[hagwalther]

Part 3C
=====

In fact the badges are too darn similar. They came from the same die. See attached photos of the deers head with particular emphasis on the right hand eyball die flaw and over sized tear duct.

[hagwalther]

Part 3D
=====

Lets look at the first 'D' in 'BY DAND'.

Note the bit of 'slag' above the top of the 'D' in both the brass and anodised versions.

There are other similarities in the 'D' and it's surroundings too - can you see and identify them?

[hagwalther]

Part 4
=====

These two badges came from the same die - simple as that. It can be argued that the anodised is genuine, came first and that the brass a fake made from the anodised die but if so, why was an expensive reverse 'mirror' die used?

From the evidence I accumulated over the weeks I came to the conclusion that all 'mirror' reverse die anodised badges were fake and stated quite boldly here.

Alan has come up with an A+S badge with providence that implies that such 'mirror' badges were used by serving members of the armed forces and this has to weaken my argument somewhat however. This badge may have been a private purchase item but such a statement by myself does smack of grasping at straws.

I also have a few other photos (today) from badges sourced from Quartermaster stock which seem to be of a 'mirror' nature - again, this weakens my argument as these badges would have come from actual stocks.

However, I believe and I hope I have convinced some of you out there that at least some of these 'mirror' reverse die badges are fake and that at this time great caution needs to be exercised with all of them.

Obviously this Gordon's "BY DAND" is a one off but it throws the proof that aluminium cap badges can be made from pre-anodised era stamping type dies and as such, the manufacture and tooling up costs of making such fakes would be zero if the pre-anodised era dies were used.

The task now will be to identify any good 'mirror' from the bad - obviously a lot more work needs to be done but remember this it does look like at least some 'hollow' reverse die Scottish badges were made from pre-anodised dies.

We also need to further identify identical anodised and non-anodised badges made from the same die. I only have one non-anodised badge so this task needs to be carried out by others and I really hope some of you can do this for the benefit of us all.

I've finished - over to you all.

Regards

Chris