14th Btn Royal Irish Rifles (Lambourne) - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

James G · #1 12-10-08, 08:06 PM

I picked up this 14th Btm Royal Irish Rifles badge at Chatham this morning. It has a Lambourne Slider and was bought for £5. It was tucked away amongst a load of Anodsed badges. I am not an authority on Irish badges. Have I been lucky or is it a wrong un? If it is a wrong un we are all in trouble as the quality of the strike is excellent.

Sonofacqms · #2 12-10-08, 09:15 PM

Lambourne made badges during WW1 of varying qualities, some are reasonable strikes and others are really poor. I started collecting Lambourne badges a few years ago and found them quite difficult to find. Recently there appears to be a lot more badges bearing the name Lambourne on the slider, which makes me suspicious as to something which should be 90 years old.

This badge looks to be extremely well struck, with the name neatly stamped on the slider, apart from the fact that this is an extremely desirable and scarce badge I would say that it was not made over 90 years ago.

But, I could be wrong . . !

James G · #3 12-10-08, 09:51 PM

That is what worries me. If it is a fake then the quality of fakes has taken a great leap forward. A bit of ageing and they are going to be impossible to distinguish which does not look good for the hobby. We need to see how many of these turn up. If this is the only one then it should be genuine but if many more turn up then we are all in trouble.

cbuehler · #4 12-10-08, 10:52 PM

Unless someone out there does know for a fact that this particular example is a fake, I would have to accept it as a good badge. The London Regiments usually were quite particular about the quality of their badges. This badge also looks quite new for its supposed age, but this is not always a problem. I have a number of unquestionably genuine badges, even a QVC Suffolks, that looks almost if it had been yesterday. As mentioned,
if fakery has reached such a level, then this hobby is indeed in trouble.

CB

John Mulcahy · #5 13-10-08, 12:15 AM

There is a school of thought that believes that the 14th RIR badge with short stubby shamrock stem, wider crown and fatter hand is a fake. I personally subscribe to that school but I will be this first to admit that my knowledge of this units' insignia is limited.

This badge to me looks suspect.

You will probably recall a detailed debate on this subject when JeanPit posed a similiar design as this for comment. There was a difference of opinion on the badge at that time.

It would be interesting to see what the (few) collectors we have who specialise in this unit have to say and also to see more comments on the chances of the Lambourne mark being genuine.

John

James G · #6 13-10-08, 06:11 PM

sonofasqms

The Lambourne lettering on the back of this badge seems to be the correct font but the letters are 1/16 of an inch in height which is larger than the only other Lambourne (KSLI) badge that I have.
From your collection of Lambournes can you tell me if this is a correct size of Font or are all Lambournes in a smaller Font.

Alan O · #7 13-10-08, 06:39 PM

That font is dubious as it is commonly seen on other restrikes with fake names. Sorry I do not like it at all.

Alan

cbuehler · #8 13-10-08, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James G

sonofasqms

The Lambourne lettering on the back of this badge seems to be the correct font but the letters are 1/16 of an inch in height which is larger than the only other Lambourne (KSLI) badge that I have.
From your collection of Lambournes can you tell me if this is a correct size of Font or are all Lambournes in a smaller Font.

I just noticed this as well. My only Lambourne marked badge is smaller as well.
Hmmm.

CB

James G · #9 13-10-08, 08:23 PM

I have been studying the two fonts on this badge and my smaller Lambourne badge and the difference is hard to tell but I then realised there is a big difference in the two The larger Font on the 14th Btn badge is written " LAMBOURNE & Co" over " BIRMINGHAM" and in the smaller Font on my KSLI badge the "o" of "Co" is underlined.
But again I would need Sonofaqms to tell me if this is found on other Lambourne badges as I only have one to compare it with.

James G · #10 13-10-08, 09:36 PM

I have just looked at this sites makers marks project and it has partially answered my question. The Lambourne mark comes in a smaller and larger font and with the underlined "o" and the non underlined "o". So I am back where I started. The badge looks genuine in every respect except for the patina.

Sonofacqms · #11 13-10-08, 10:18 PM

I will have to dig out my badges as they are all on the regimental cards in my store, this process is not a five minute job. From my estimation, forgetting mm dimensions (I started work as a compositor, so I still work on the point system) the badge is a restrike, well executed, but not 90 plus years old, if in the future others turn up online in any quantity, then you can be sure these are not originals.

The fact that this badge turned up in a load of modern anodised rings alarm bells for me, in these days of modern enlightenment, most dealers know what they are selling.

But I could be wrong . . !

James G · #12 13-10-08, 10:32 PM

I agree a dealer should know what he's got. All my instincts tell me this must be a restrike but everytime I try and look deeper in to it the less sure I am. I have just looked on the makers marks site and the lambourne mark shown is from the regular RIR badge which tends to make me think that the volunteer battalions are likely to go to the same manufacturer as the parent unit. Or am I looking too deep.

Mike · #13 14-10-08, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James G

I have just looked at this sites makers marks project and it has partially answered my question. The Lambourne mark comes in a smaller and larger font and with the underlined "o" and the non underlined "o". So I am back where I started. The badge looks genuine in every respect except for the patina.

James, I recall when that large font Artists Rifles was submitted one or two on here raised doubts. I have now marked the large font one as "Authenticity disputed" until we get more info.

I will add the "Lambourne" Army Pay Corps (mentioned elsewhere on the forum) onto that page in the next few mins.
The APC mark is quite small as well, 11mm long.

Mike · #14 14-10-08, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James G

I picked up this 14th Btm Royal Irish Rifles badge at Chatham this morning. It has a Lambourne Slider and was bought for £5. It was tucked away amongst a load of Anodsed badges. I am not an authority on Irish badges. Have I been lucky or is it a wrong un? If it is a wrong un we are all in trouble as the quality of the strike is excellent.

James - can I add this badge & mark to the Lambourne page?

mike.

Mike · #15 14-10-08, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

James - can I add this badge & mark to the Lambourne page?

mike.

Must be in my manic phase today, and I cant wait for you to reply and have added it anyway

I also now see the comparison between the alleged WW2 Grove marks and the alleged WW1 lambourne marks, so much so I have linked the two pages.

scary stuff. - see what happens when you have an interactive place to bring this information together?? fake badge makers get explosive diarrhoea that's what.