Fake Anodised Aluminium Scottish Cap Badges

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

if these the three previously described are fake then so are the rest especially if a non 'mirror' hollow back, semi-hollowback or flat backed badge also existed for a particular unit.

HI Chris,

Having the provenance of Alan's A&SH presented I don't know how you can draw this conclusion. In other words, a couple of fakes are about therefore everything in the same finish must be a fake even if it was worn in the Regiment.

One question if I may: What is your definition for a fake badge as opposed to a re-strike?

Interesting discussion so far

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Hi Chris,

This was my original belief but I think it can been seen as the posting from Part 1 to Part 4 continues that this belief changes with Alan's badge. The initial belief was that if three fakes were manufactured with 'mirror' finish reverse dies then any other Scottish badges with the same reverse had been made then same way.

As most Scottish badge except so far for the four which I have called for more information on came in non 'mirror' reverse die forms then it certainly appeared to me that these 'mirror' badges had been made from pre-anodised era dies and the non 'mirror' from true anodised dies hence separating good from bad by the type of dies used.

This was noted in the Gordon "BY DAND" badge where the aluminium and brass badges were made from the same dies and I have provided photographic proof on this.

I have never used the definition re-strike but use unofficial commission and fake to define non authorised and issued items. These definitions are used in many of my postings.

A fake is an item intended to deceive not using the material or the process previously used to make original genuine aluminium badges. An unofficial commission however is the result of a dealer, PRI shop, reunion etc. going to badge manufacturer and commissioning a batch of badges for manufacture. These badges could have come from the original or newly cut dies. I have plenty of anecdotal evidence of this going on but I'm not going to go into it here and I don't want this thread to splinter away down that track.

Also, I really don't want to get into what is an what is not a fake here or any other badges which are non-Scottish. I do have a penned chaper on cadet badges and will follow this up later with a TA section but for the moment lets concentrate on these 'mirror' die badges and especially photos on the four badges I've asked for in non 'mirror' die form.

The main question to ask is why produce such a 'mirror' reverse die when there is no need to do so? If anyone can answer that then this will solve the problem but at the moment I believe that all these 'mirror' badges (or the great majority of them) were made from previously existing pre aluminium era dies being knocked in most cases to deceive collectors.

Chris, do you have any evidence on why these 'mirror' finish badges are authentic? As I have stated before, I would be delighted to be proven wrong and drop this issue and recover a good deal of my Scottish badge collection.

Regards

Chris

[Alan O]

Chris,

The Argylles is modern as I got it just before the Regt merged. It does show that is it likely that an official supplier to the MOD was making badges in this pattern.

It does not however invalidate your theory about fakes in any way.
It is still probable that this firm (LB&B or Firmin) were also making old designs to order.

Alan

[hagwalther]

Thanks Alan,

I've just checked your A+S badge as post here in this thread with particular emphasis to the lugs. Are they made of round wire or possibly semi-flat wire?

They seem to be round wire to me and with the feet as shown would label them as those used on known and marked LB&B badges. If semi-flat wire then probably late Firmin post Smith & Wright takeover.

If LB&B then this would put it post 1973.

Regards

Chris

[Chrisr]

Hi Chris,

Thank you for your explanation re fakes and unofficial commissions. From a purist perspective I appreciate and respect your point of view. As a career soldier, I am aware that we wore what was issued irrespective of its manufacturing source. In my case this included, for a short period, one that is regarded as a fake badge. The only reason I took it off was because I was tired of polishing it.

I can't offer any information as to the authenticity of the "mirror image" badges. All I know is the soldier couldn't give a damn about about where the badge came from. Thus I am less inclined to call a badge a fake simply because it may have been made by an unauthorized supplier but I do understand and respect the views of the purist collectors. I also don't like the flood of re-strikes on the market but I know collectors who are quite happy to have them in their collection, if they are quality re-strikes.

My only concern is that we may be confining perfectly good badges worn in units to the bin based on unsubstantiated opinion. I guess my awareness of this has been heightened by own experience. I was about to confine an RND Drake Bn badge to the bin based on advice on this forum when I recalled its origins. The badge was made well before 1961 when i purchased it and very probably the previous owner had acquired it in the 1930's. It now appears to be a genuine badge. Another member of the forum has taken another RND badge out of the re-strike bin based on the photos of the other RND badges I purchased from the same collection. Thus we can mislead people based on "accepted wisdom" that may not be accurate. That is why I think we ought to be careful and back up any claim with good evidence. In the end, each collector will have his own views and criteria for judging a badge.

Thanks again for your explanation and the sterling work you are doing in regard to a/a badges. It will be a very useful contribution to the hobby.

Best regards
Chrisr

[hagwalther]

Hi Chris,

Excellent points and yes, we need to be careful about what we write but at times we have to shake the status quo and see what falls out and often is the only way to learn things.

This sort of collecting stuff is full of inconsistencies but for now I know that I need to replace a lot of badges in my collection to be happy with them.

With the outstanding:

1. 5th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders
2. Gordon Highlanders (BY DAND Two Words)
3. Highland Light Infantry (Queens Crown)
4. Royal Highland Fusiliers (Pipers)

unless someone can show some non 'mirror' reverse examples I'm not even going to start looking for them.

Regards

Chris

[Alan O]

Chris

They appear to be semi flat wire. My 2 Firmin marked badges (Gordons and Highlanders) are round wire with longer lugs. These are identical to my Black Watch badge as well which is mirror imaged as well.

Alan

[hagwalther]

Hi Alan,

I'll check these later.

Regards

Chris