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  #31  
Old 05-07-19, 07:29 PM
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Can i use your images also ?
Andy
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  #32  
Old 05-07-19, 07:49 PM
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Toby did the Quartermaster actually wear the forage cap ? Just been reading dress regs for officers 1834-1911. Says they wore the cocked hat as the medical officer and epaulettes of a subaltern ?
Andy
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  #33  
Old 05-07-19, 08:04 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Andy
Please excuse lack of rear views but board mounting precludes it without a lot of hassle unfortunately.
Comments on what you see would be welcome though, if there are any points of interest.
When you say 'use the images' what for please? I generally do not mind my images being used, as long as they are credited. I am sorry the quality is not better.
I am pleased they appear useful, but again apologise for the lack of back images.
All the best
Mike
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  #34  
Old 05-07-19, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
Andy
Please excuse lack of rear views but board mounting precludes it without a lot of hassle unfortunately.
Comments on what you see would be welcome though, if there are any points of interest.
When you say 'use the images' what for please? I generally do not mind my images being used, as long as they are credited. I am sorry the quality is not better.
I am pleased they appear useful, but again apologise for the lack of back images.
All the best
Mike
Use of images for reference only Mike. I was after seeing the reverse of the gilt grenade with gilt cypher, just to see how it was made etc etc.
Andy
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  #35  
Old 05-07-19, 08:49 PM
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Andy
Of course feel free to use for your reference - no problem.
Sincere apologies re the reverses - if there is a future need I will unpick it all, but really best left - note made on board though for future reference - if the need does arise. You have a good eye - I have a note, which may be wrong, the gilt on gilt mounted cypher GVR is only one of three recorded at the time I bought it. Bosleys Military Badge Auction 22/7/1996. Someone may have the catalogue.
Mike

Given potential rarity I took this one off but think it best not to unravel the others - hoping this helps

Last edited by Mike B; 05-07-19 at 09:04 PM.
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  #36  
Old 05-07-19, 10:24 PM
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Andy
Of course feel free to use for your reference - no problem.
Sincere apologies re the reverses - if there is a future need I will unpick it all, but really best left - note made on board though for future reference - if the need does arise. You have a good eye - I have a note, which may be wrong, the gilt on gilt mounted cypher GVR is only one of three recorded at the time I bought it. Bosleys Military Badge Auction 22/7/1996. Someone may have the catalogue.
Mike

Given potential rarity I took this one off but think it best not to unravel the others - hoping this helps
Excellent thank you Mike. Much appreciated.
Andy
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  #37  
Old 06-07-19, 07:42 AM
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Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
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Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
Toby did the Quartermaster actually wear the forage cap ? Just been reading dress regs for officers 1834-1911. Says they wore the cocked hat as the medical officer and epaulettes of a subaltern ?
Andy
Yes, you are quite right that the quartermaster wore the brigade cocked hat with full dress review order (and still does when on parade). In undress, however, he wore the round forage cap. Ergo for day-to-day duties around barracks that was his headwear. The third headdress (equivalent of the beret) was generally worn in the field, see photo blue patrols. Interestingly, he was uniquely authorised to wear an officer’s sash, unlike quartermasters of the line. See quartermaster at centre in B&W photo. The sergeant major wears second tunic as used in undress by the First Class battalion staff.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 06-07-19 at 09:44 AM.
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  #38  
Old 06-07-19, 07:56 AM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Toby et al.
Is the gilt mounted on gilt as difficult to find as I had heard at the time?
Images in a couple of posts up from here (post 35).
All the best
Mike
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  #39  
Old 06-07-19, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
Toby et al.
Is the gilt mounted on gilt as difficult to find as I had heard at the time?
Images in a couple of posts up from here (post 35).
All the best
Mike
Here is a superb photo showing your badge being worn, it is clear that the cypher is embossed and not mounted.

Yes, I believe that gilt on gilt is more rare.

While officers had embroidered cap badges on their forage caps other ranks had a solid metal grenade badge. Privates had a plain smooth brass grenade, but Quartermasters, Warrant Officers and Sergeants had royal cyphers either in brass of silver.
1. Commissioned Quartermaster's forage cap badge. Gilt with silver crown and Victorian reversed cypher.
2. Staff Sergeant's gilt badge with Victorian reverse cypher. No crown.
3. Sergeant's gilt badge with Edward VII crown and cypher. 1902-1910.
4. Warrant Officer's gilt badge with Edward VII crown and cypher in silver. 1902-1910.
5. Warrant Officer's gilt badge with George V crown and cypher. 1910-1936.

NB. It seems likely to me that following the significant changes to uniform in 1902 (SD and new pattern forage caps, etc) the commissioned quartermasters ceased wearing their special metal badge and adopted the same bullion wire badge as other officers.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 9A87B3AE-688A-4693-828B-23ADB70AC887.jpg (52.6 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg DA7C72AC-A8F6-463D-B5A4-F048289F865F.jpg (40.8 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg 17F95F47-D8A0-4928-A5E4-EC3A7B78CDC5.jpg (88.4 KB, 23 views)

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 06-07-19 at 09:37 AM.
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  #40  
Old 06-07-19, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Here is a superb photo showing your badge being worn, it is clear that the cypher is embossed and not mounted.

Yes, I believe that gilt on gilt is more rare.

While officers had embroidered cap badges on their forage caps other ranks had a solid metal grenade badge. Privates had a plain smooth brass grenade, but Quartermasters, Warrant Officers and Sergeants had royal cyphers either in brass of silver.
1. Commissioned Quartermaster's forage cap badge. Gilt with silver crown and Victorian reversed cypher.
2. Staff Sergeant's gilt badge with Victorian reverse cypher. No crown.
3. Sergeant's gilt badge with Edward VII crown and cypher. 1902-1910.
4. Warrant Officer's gilt badge with Edward VII crown and cypher in silver. 1902-1910.
5. Warrant Officer's gilt badge with George V crown and cypher. 1910-1936.

NB. It seems likely to me that following the significant changes to uniform in 1902 (SD and new pattern forage caps, etc) the commissioned quartermasters ceased wearing their special metal badge and adopted the same bullion wire badge as other officers.
I have the first image ( the actual page ) and cant tell clearly wether the cypher is mounted or struck ?! Up until 1911 i believe the Quartermaster wore plain clothes and had a No.1 dress for which he wore the cocked hat with. From what i have read he didn't have any other headdress. The badge image info i have seen, do you know where they got their info from ? as again this differs from K & K. So the badge at the beginning of this thread is no.5 ?
Andy
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  #41  
Old 06-07-19, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
Toby et al.
Is the gilt mounted on gilt as difficult to find as I had heard at the time?
Images in a couple of posts up from here (post 35).
All the best
Mike
I have only seen a couple. If you ever want to part with it.....
Andy
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  #42  
Old 06-07-19, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
I have the first image ( the actual page ) and cant tell clearly wether the cypher is mounted or struck ?! Up until 1911 i believe the Quartermaster wore plain clothes and had a No.1 dress for which he wore the cocked hat with. From what i have read he didn't have any other headdress. The badge image info i have seen, do you know where they got their info from ? as again this differs from K & K. So the badge at the beginning of this thread is no.5 ?
Andy
My eyes suggest the badge is struck, not mounted, which latter has a much more three dimensional appearance. We are talking about the Victorian era and there is no doubt that quartermasters did have full dress, worn with cocked hats when in review order, albeit that it wasn’t often worn other than for full strength battalion parades when in review order. It was his equivalent of a bearskin and had been worn by Foot Guards battalion staff (officers) even when the Guards were still wearing shakos. There is also no doubt that in undress, usually the eponymous Guards pattern frock coat, that QMs wore the round forage cap. I have just shown you a photo to that effect and there are others of the QM Scots Guards in that dress.

No I do not know where the information on the badge patterns ‘originated’ from, but it was not Kipling and King, so presumably from another source. If you choose not to believe Andy, because you’ve not seen a sealed pattern or some other concrete evidence, that’s up to you. It’s a bit like someone doubting Christ because they weren’t there to meet him, and I’m not interested in evangelising you. What has been described as the commissioned quartermaster’s special badge undoubtedly had a short life and seems to have been unique to the Grenadiers, which in part is probably why it didn’t last. If the Coldstreams and Scots did not inflict an arguably snobbish difference on their quartermasters I imagine it probably led to some feeling of perhaps unspoken resentment. It doesn’t mean that it did not exist though, so I’m keeping an open mind. I’m surprised that no one has taken the trouble to visit the Guards Museum and properly research this through the archives, I’m pretty sure it’s what Kipling and King would have done to get their information in the first place.

The only other possibility that I can think of, if Kipling and King are incorrect, is that it might relate to Battalion staff sergeants, who were dressed in two classes of uniform, First Class and Sergeants Class, and so might also have had two classes of forage cap badge. If that were so, the First Class comprised the sergeant major, the bandmaster, the quarter master sergeant, the sergeant instructor of musketry, drill sergeants, and the drum major, who would all have worn the grenade with silver mounted cypher. All the other battalion staff (sergeants) wore Sergeants Class and so perhaps might have worn the grenade with gilt mounted cypher and all other sergeants (colour sergeant and below) the grenade with cypher embossed/struck. It will never be confirmed unless someone goes to the museum and properly researches it.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 06-07-19 at 11:24 AM.
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  #43  
Old 06-07-19, 11:14 AM
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There is no God, Jesus or Christ, and certainly no proof nor will there be.
I thought only the Commanding Officer, Adjutant and Senior Major were the only one's to wear the frock coat ?!
I have been to the Museum many times and have asked many questions, no answer has justified these badges being worn by the Quartermaster.
However I'm all for keeping an open mind, its just when someone says " yes it's a so and so " but with no evidence. That in this game is just so wrong. I'm all for learning though. So back to the badge at the beginning of this thread, who wears it ?
Andy
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  #44  
Old 06-07-19, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Yes, you are quite right that the quartermaster wore the brigade cocked hat with full dress review order (and still does when on parade). In undress, however, he wore the round forage cap. Ergo for day-to-day duties around barracks that was his headwear. The third headdress (equivalent of the beret) was generally worn in the field, see photo blue patrols. Interestingly, he was uniquely authorised to wear an officer’s sash, unlike quartermasters of the line. See quartermaster at centre in B&W photo. The sergeant major wears second tunic as used in undress by the First Class battalion staff.
Who and what rank is the 3rd photo of please ? His wearing the worsted grenade, i believe. There is a photo in my album which shows this grenade being worn.
Andy
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  #45  
Old 06-07-19, 11:21 AM
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Many thanks for the additional information. I will read and digest it thoroughly
It is great to have such specialist expertise on this forum.
Mike
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