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  #31  
Old 07-06-17, 10:18 AM
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Here is my example which I am happy with
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  #32  
Old 07-06-17, 12:06 PM
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Very nice.....

* The slider end looks clipped for what ever reason?
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 07-06-17 at 01:12 PM.
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  #33  
Old 07-06-17, 01:01 PM
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The common reason for the shortening of the badge was either for wear in a pagri or for the peaked cap which replaced the Brodrick from c.1905/06.

This is not a pagri badge as the regt were in Ireland/UK during its possible period of wear.

The only photo I have found of the 19th Hussars between 1902-10 is in Ireland and rather frustratingly they were bareheaded. As yet I have been unable to find out whether they wore the badgeless pill box, FSC with collar or Brodrick, then peaked cap with a badge over this period. I suspect that they wore the pill box on their return to UK in 1902 and changed to one of the others later on.

The shortened slider would suggest post 1906 pattern peaked cap. I would caveat all of this that some bands wore peaked caps before 1906 so it could be from a bandsman cap.

There is however no evidence showing that it was ever, ever worn.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 09-06-17 at 06:20 PM.
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  #34  
Old 08-06-17, 06:59 PM
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Part of a complete collection of badges recently purchased . All excellent quality and titled British Army Badges 1902 but I and others think about 1905-08'but all Edwardian period

Last edited by RBJ MIlitaria; 08-06-17 at 07:37 PM.
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  #35  
Old 11-06-17, 08:04 PM
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An officers' badge from Officers' Dress Regulations 1904 from Princetown University's online collection. This picture ties in nicely with the Officer's silver 1903 hallmarked badge shown elsewhere.

Has any one considered that he reason that Hugh King mentions that Double Scroll Elephants were so rare was because they were only worn by officers? - and even then when they were not wearing the pill box hats which some regts retained for some years.

The ORs on the other hand could wear badgeless pill box caps from 1902 after their return from South Africa and replacing the PWO elephant slouch hat badge. With the replacement of the pill box the collar badge was worn on the peaked caps.

What badge (if any) did the regt wear on their FSC? The Cypher collar or an elephant? http://www.uniformology.com/HUSSARS-09.html suggests the elephant. Coincidentally the regt was retitled at the same time as hey both returned to UK and the side cap was replaced.

Anyway all it takes for Gaylor to picture this elusive badge and a whole industry of fakes have resulted.
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Last edited by Alan O; 11-06-17 at 08:42 PM.
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  #36  
Old 28-05-19, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
badgeless pill box caps from 1902 after their return from South Africa and replacing the PWO elephant slouch hat badge. With the replacement of the pill box the collar badge was worn on the peaked caps...
Some data I noted on a recent visit to the National Archives from WO 359 Vol. 15 p. 17.

New Pattern... Badge Forage Cap and F.S. Helmet, with vertical shank, All Ranks 19 Hussars, New Pattern, Pattern No. 6968/1909 ... Badge Made Obsolete Pattern No. 4659a/1903, Badge, German Silver, Forage Cap and F.S. Helmet, All Ranks 19 Hussars, Notes... The Collar Badge ("A' with Coronet and Cross) is substituted for the (Elephant) cap badge. Date March 11, 1909.
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  #37  
Old 28-05-19, 01:48 PM
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John

Many thanks for that. Very enlightening.

The 1903 date ties up exactly with the known hallmarked ones.

Interesting to note that the March 1909 date matches the change of regimental title of the from PWO to 19th (Queen Alexandra's Own Royal) Hussars in 1908 (although she had been Queen since the Coronation in 1902). I think it is Gaylor who dated the badge from 1902-10 based on the change of monarchs which is now shown to be an incorrect assumption.

There seems to be a discrepancy between Princess Alexandra becoming Queen in 1902 and the double scroll elephant badge with it's incorrect and obsolete PWO title in 1903.

Whilst there remains an absence of contemporary photos to show what was actually worn between 1903 and 1908, perhaps the incorrect title of PWO explains why the double scroll badge was not produced in large numbers? I am still searching for a photo of the regiment in anything other than a pill box hat and the Brodrick in particular would clinch it. I am leaning more and more to the theory that the collar was used in place of the incorrectly titled elephant badge far earlier than the sealed pattern of 1909.

Alan

Last edited by Alan O; 28-05-19 at 02:00 PM.
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  #38  
Old 28-05-19, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
Some data I noted on a recent visit to the National Archives from WO 359 Vol. 15 p. 17.

New Pattern... Badge Forage Cap and F.S. Helmet, with vertical shank, All Ranks 19 Hussars, New Pattern, Pattern No. 6968/1909 ... Badge Made Obsolete Pattern No. 4659a/1903, Badge, German Silver, Forage Cap and F.S. Helmet, All Ranks 19 Hussars, Notes... The Collar Badge ("A' with Coronet and Cross) is substituted for the (Elephant) cap badge. Date March 11, 1909.
Great research John, thanks again.

Just to clarify and get my head round this are we saying Pattern No. 6968/1909 is the Dannebrog cross badge and Pattern No. 4659a/1903 is the double scroll Nelly?
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  #39  
Old 28-05-19, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Great research John, thanks again.

Just to clarify and get my head round this are we saying Pattern No. 6968/1909 is the Dannebrog cross badge and Pattern No. 4659a/1903 is the double scroll Nelly?
Yes to the collar badge (but now sealed as a cap badge and thus the SPN May refer specifically to this use) , 4659a/1903 is definitely an Elephant cap badge but no commentary at all on how many scrolls in this record and no rubbing or illustration to answer your question.

John
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  #40  
Old 28-05-19, 03:22 PM
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https://www.jstor.org/stable/4422958...n_tab_contents

Page 225 of this article does not show a picture but states that the advent of the Brodrick saw new badges required for 9 regiments. This list includes the 19th Hussars 4659a/1903 badge which is described as 'smaller'.

As the article itself suggests the all white 19th Hussars New Pattern 'Brodrick' (colour changed to drummer red cloth in 1904) may not have been actually worn by the cavalry until as late as 1906 and even then not for very long before the peaked cap was adopted in late 1906.
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  #41  
Old 30-05-19, 04:14 PM
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Alan
I don't think the badge was ever issued (even if a few specimens were made) for the very good reason that you pointed out:

"There seems to be a discrepancy between Princess Alexandra becoming Queen in 1902 and the double scroll elephant badge with it's incorrect and obsolete PWO title in 1903."

The problem was two concurrent Princess of Wales Hussars titles, one adopted by the 19th Hussars in 1885 for Alexandra (http://britishcavalryregiments.com/39-19H/19H.html), the other by the 18th Hussars in 1903 for Mary. The 19th added "Alexandra" in 1902 to make a clear distinction between the regiments and also the former and present Princesses of Wales.

19th - So Princess Alexandra of Denmark was Princess of Wales from 1863 to 1901 and Queen Consort from 1901 (Coronation 1902).
The regimental titles were:

1862 19th Hussars

1885 19th (Princess of Wales's Own) Hussars [For Alexandra]
Badge: 1900 Dress Regs Single scroll elephant "19th P.O.W. HUSSARS"
Sealed about 1896? (ref NAM).

1902 19th (Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own) Hussars
Badge: 1904 Dress Regs Double scroll "19th (Alexandra P.W.O) Hussars" Full stop omitted after O. Presumably this is Pattern No. 4659a/1903. An OSD in bronze is also listed and smaller collars in bronze!

1908 19th (Queen Alexandra's Own Royal) Hussars
Badge: "A" with coronet and cross (Dannebrog) (Pattern No. 6968/1909)

1921 19th Royal Hussars (Queen Alexandra's Own)

Also 4659a suggests there exists a 4659b but could this be just a change from loops to shank?

18th - Princess Victoria Mary (Mary of Teck), married Prince George, Duke of York (later George V), in 1893 and he was proclaimed as Prince of Wales on 9th November 1901, so Mary was the Princess of Wales from that time (not Alexandra) and until crowned Queen Consort in 1910.

The 18th Hussars (title in 1858), was changed in:
1903 18th (Princess of Wales's Own) Hussars [For Princess Mary]
1905 18th (Victoria Mary, Princess of Wales's Own) Hussars
1910 18th (Queen Mary's Own) Hussars
1919 18th (Queen Mary's Own) Royal Hussars
1921 18th Royal Hussars (Queen Mary's Own)

Bill
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  #42  
Old 16-06-19, 08:32 PM
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Thought I’d show my single scroll on a long slider in case it’s the ‘a’. You don’t see too many of these either so as you both say whatever badge it was (single scroll now with slider or Double Nelly) no doubt the production run or order was cut short due to it having a defunct title.
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File Type: jpg 28D841DB-5CF0-49BC-B0BB-EBE77C087BD6.jpg (68.3 KB, 11 views)

Last edited by Luke H; 16-06-19 at 09:09 PM.
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  #43  
Old 16-06-19, 08:36 PM
Drmiggy Drmiggy is offline
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And what would the thoughts be about this one?
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  #44  
Old 16-06-19, 08:50 PM
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Common fake
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  #45  
Old 16-06-19, 08:57 PM
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Bosleys have one for sale in the next auction
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