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  #1  
Old 07-01-16, 12:50 AM
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pinfrin pinfrin is offline
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Default 1st's badge image &

[1] Have these 2 buttons -
(a) Seen a pic of matching badge for the 1st Parsees ( Holy Fire motif ? ) at Worthpoint
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...-cap-248969822
(b) Could not find a Badge image to match the 1st Seikhs (PFF) Button - 1880 - 1901. Any leads please ?
[2] Also looking for a button to match the Lingayats badge I have.
[ Gaylor's book says:' Unusually, the badge chosen for the new raising was Shiva's Trident, a unique
example of a device from the Hindu pantheon being used by a unit in the service of the crown' ]
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1st Parsee Pioneers & 1st Seikh Inf PFF Buttons.jpg (90.0 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg 1st Parsee Pioneers.jpg (25.5 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg 1st Seikh Inf PFF.jpg (15.0 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg Lingayats Bn.jpg (75.1 KB, 38 views)

Last edited by pinfrin; 09-01-16 at 09:07 PM. Reason: text size change
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  #2  
Old 07-01-16, 06:14 AM
Donny B. Donny B. is offline
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Well I certainly know very little about Indian badges but I seem to be missing something here.

When I go to the Worthpoint link that you give in item [1](a) of your post, I see a badge that is listed as a "Victorian 1 Parsee Bombay Pioneers cap badge". In the description the seller goes on to claim, "According to my reading this must be a pre 1840 badge".

When I look at the badge I see the Holy Fire motif is backed by a pick crossing a rifle that appears to be a breech loading weapon, not introduced until the late 1800s......certainly not pre 1840. I would go further and say that, to my old eyes, the rifle appears represent an SMLE of perhaps 1903 or 1907, certainly not "Victorian" as the badge is described.

So! Were the badge designers able to cleverly foretell changes in firearms technology when the badge was struck, is the badge incorrectly described, are there typing errors in the listing or is there something else blatantly obvious that I am missing.

I do like your buttons though I am not an "Indian" collector.

I Man
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  #3  
Old 07-01-16, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny B. View Post
Well I certainly know very little about Indian badges but I seem to be missing something here.

When I go to the Worthpoint link that you give in item [1](a) of your post, I see a badge that is listed as a "Victorian 1 Parsee Bombay Pioneers cap badge". In the description the seller goes on to claim, "According to my reading this must be a pre 1840 badge".

When I look at the badge I see the Holy Fire motif is backed by a pick crossing a rifle that appears to be a breech loading weapon, not introduced until the late 1800s......certainly not pre 1840. I would go further and say that, to my old eyes, the rifle appears represent an SMLE of perhaps 1903 or 1907, certainly not "Victorian" as the badge is described.

So! Were the badge designers able to cleverly foretell changes in firearms technology when the badge was struck, is the badge incorrectly described, are there typing errors in the listing or is there something else blatantly obvious that I am missing.

I do like your buttons though I am not an "Indian" collector.

I Man
Hi,

I think this Parsee unit was raised about WW1.
Will go through the IA lists soon to check on their period of service.
Thank you
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  #4  
Old 07-01-16, 02:59 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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I share Doony's concerns about the badge. Also, there was never a '1 Bombay Pioneers', the nearest being the 1st Battalion, 2nd Bombay Pioneers, formed in 1922 from the 107th Pioneers and disbanded in 1933. Parsis were not one of the groups traditionally recruited into the British Indian Army, as they tended to be found in the mercantile and trade occupations. A very strange situation!
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  #5  
Old 07-01-16, 04:35 PM
Khyber Khyber is offline
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The Parsee Battalion did exist and served in WW1

Here's what I could cull from FB. Not sure how accurate, but here goes..

THE PARSI BATTALION -- WW I
During WW I, the Parsi Battalion had the distinct Honor and Privileges over any of the other regiments from India. All Battalions from India had a sanctioned strength of 1,021 Officers and men, while only a few Indian regiments which had the status of Pioneer Battalions, had a sanctioned strength of 1,034 Officers and men.
Since The Parsi Battalion was the only fighting force in British India that was granted the same status as the British Army, it had a sanctioned strength of 1,051 Officers & men. For all Indian Battalions, the Commanding Officer was of the rank of Lieutenant Colonel (Lt.Col) but the Parsi Battalion, was headed by a Commanding Officer with the full rank of Colonel (COL).

The Parsi Battalion also had a reserve force of 551 Officers & men that did not go overseas, but were stationed at strategic locations at Bombay for guard duty. 11 Privates acted as drivers for the horse-drawn transport. Battle experience also led to orders to ensure that battalions would leave behind a number of men when going into action, to form a nucleus for rebuilding, in the event of heavy casualties being suffered. A total of 108 all ranks, consisting of a mix of instructors, trained signalers and other specialists, were to be left out. The number of men acting as stretcher-bearers was increased from 16 to 32, when battle action was at its peak.
A stone memorial stands as a tribute to the Parsee officers and men who sacrified their lives and served during WW1. It is at the Kharghat Parsee Colony in Bombay.

The first two Indians to be awarded the DSO (Distinguished Service Order) were Parsis in World War I (1914 – 1918). Capt. (later Maj. Gen.) Cursetjee and Capt. (later Col.) Bharucha, both of the IMS.

The reason why NOT much is written about The Parsi Battalion in India, like the history of the other regiments from India that also took part in W.W. I. is due to the fact that the Parsi Battalion was the only fighting force in British India, that was granted the same status as The British Army, and were always counted as a British Force, and all the records were kept in England.
Unfortunately, The 2 Million “Burnt Documents ” (WO 363) included the loss of records of The Parsi Battalion.

Unfortunately too, about 60% of the soldiers’ Service Records were irretrievably damaged or lost completely as a result of enemy bombing in 1940 during the Second World War. The exact number of serving British soldiers is not known because of the loss of the records.

The Parsi Battalion was fortunate enough to get high power weapons, machine guns, extra ammo, & rations & supplies including woolen blankets, woolen uniforms, which was far superior in both quality & quantity. The Fire power they carried made a difference on the battle field. The Parsi Battalion was the only fighting force from India that was given more motorized units, were served English Whisky, and they were also given additional pay as they were considered a British Force.

Battalion transport consisted of 13 riding and 43 draught and pack horses. They provided the power for drawing the six ammunition carts, two water carts, three General Service Wagons (for tools and machine guns) and the Medical Officer's Maltese Cart. The signallers had 9 bicycles. (Note: the Divisional Train also provided four more two-horsed GS Wagons for the battalion).
Most men carried a rifle Lee-Enfield. Staff-Sergeants were also armed with the sword-bayonet. Machine guns though were in short supply at the time, but our Parsi Battalion never felt the shortage.

Other battalion equipment, over and above that carried by the men, included 120 shovels, 73 pickaxes, 20 felling axes, 8 hand axes, 46 billhooks, 20 reaping hooks, a hand saw, 32 folding saws and 8 crowbars. There was also a plethora of minor stores and spares.

The battalion also carried a certain amount of ammunition, although this was backed up by the echelons of transport at Brigade, Divisional and Lines of Communication levels. When added together, the supply per rifle came to 550 rounds per man. The battalion transport carried 32 boxes of 1,000 rounds, and each man could carry up to 120 rounds. The machine guns were each supplied with a total of 41,500 rounds of which 3,500 were carried with the gun, and 8,000 in Battalion reserve. Food, water and ration had to be used very sparingly, till the supply was replenished.

The Parsi Battalion was the first among British forces to get a tank called Little Willie and it had a top speed of 3 MPH.

The Western Front, which ran from the English Channel to Switzerland, had over 25,000 miles of trenches, of which some forward trenches were occupied by The Parsi Battalion.

To join The Parsi Battalion one had to be 18 to 19 years old, but some Parsi Boys lied about their true ages and some Parsis were as young as 16 years old who joined the force.
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  #6  
Old 07-01-16, 04:38 PM
Khyber Khyber is offline
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Also, quite a few Parsees served in the Army, in the IMS, Meso Rly etc India's first and (parobably most favourite) Field Marshal was Sam Maneckshaw, MC was also a Parsee.
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  #7  
Old 07-01-16, 07:39 PM
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And the Field Marshal served with the Gurkhas!!!
Regards
Steve
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  #8  
Old 07-01-16, 10:43 PM
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Default Gurkhas & others

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
And the Field Marshal served with the Gurkhas!!!
Regards
Steve
GR and previously with 4/12 FF [ <- 54th Sikhs <- 4th Sikh Inf (PFF) ]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...Manekshaw.html

Am still looking for insignia to the 1st Sikhs & 4th Sikhs (at least pics please ?).
For the Ms whose GF / GGF served in PFF units to 1901
Only have a 54th Sikhs silver cap badge and a 1st Sikhs button.

Last edited by pinfrin; 09-01-16 at 09:05 PM.
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  #9  
Old 07-01-16, 10:46 PM
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Many thanks for the research.
Could you provide a link to the Parsee info please.
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  #10  
Old 08-01-16, 08:25 AM
Khyber Khyber is offline
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https://www.facebook.com/ParsiZoroas...540984363172:0

Not sure about the accuracy of this, as i mentioned earlier..
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  #11  
Old 08-01-16, 03:01 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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Well done, Khyber! I spent a fruitless half hour lloking for any mention of the Parsi Battalion. Never thought of consulting Facebook!

I too have some doubts about some of this info. I suspect the basic details are accurate: when raised, riole, etc, but there are far too many 'the first to... ' andf 'the only battalion to... ' for my comfort. Sounds as if the author is a big fan of the unit, with which there is nothing wrong, but perhaps has spoken to someone who 'remembers big' - like fishermen!

Again, good spotting!
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  #12  
Old 09-01-16, 05:02 AM
Khyber Khyber is offline
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Its written by a Parsee so you have to take that into account..

I tried to collect medals to Parsees as a sub-theme, but gave it up after sometime...but there were plenty of them in the Auxillary Forces India and medals to them do turn up from time to time..

I'm from Bombay (Now Mumbai) but now in B'lore but in my next visit the city in a few months will try and get a photo of that memorial.
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  #13  
Old 09-01-16, 08:51 AM
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pinfrin pinfrin is offline
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Default Parsees IA, (R)IN

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khyber View Post
Its written by a Parsee so you have to take that into account..

I tried to collect medals to Parsees as a sub-theme, but gave it up after sometime...but there were plenty of them in the Auxillary Forces India and medals to them do turn up from time to time..

I'm from Bombay (Now Mumbai) but now in B'lore but in my next visit the city in a few months will try and get a photo of that memorial.
[1] Memorial (1926) a small pic here:
http://zoroastrians.net/2014/08/15/p...s-were-in-wwi/

[2] RIN & RIM flags can also be seen in April - link below. (Pics request...)
http://epaperbeta.timesofindia.com/A...5082014008007#

[3] Navy A Parsi* (IN) officer perhaps commented that the first and last ships to
be sunk with gunfire by the IM / IN were Portuguese - 29 Oct 1612 and 18 Dec 1961
[ * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...-obituary.html ]

pinf rin

Last edited by pinfrin; 10-01-16 at 08:06 AM. Reason: text size
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  #14  
Old 09-01-16, 01:55 PM
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Hello pinfrin,

Your contributions here are very useful (at least to me). They are definitely worth at least the normal size font as used here by default. I do not know what you do to get them almost unreadable, but to be honest, they create a headache.
__________________
Henk

Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents?
Try: Regimental lineages

Last edited by Wmr-RHB; 09-01-16 at 02:48 PM.
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  #15  
Old 09-01-16, 02:18 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khyber View Post
Its written by a Parsee so you have to take that into account..
That would have been my guess! Nor am I surprised to hear that ther were numerous Parsees in service. I'd have guessed, given their traditional occupations that, under the British at least, they would have enlisted in the AFI units associsted with specific occupations - the railway battalions, for example - and in some of te service corps, where technical and literacy skills were at a premium. And I assume that once the whole 'martial castes' nonsense went out the window, which I hope it has, that other areas of the forces would be open to them.

I didn't realize you were in India. It must make finding the sorts of things we're interested in at least a bit easier!
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