Machine Gun Corps Gaunt plaque

[P.Jones]

After the recent debate on Gaunt plaques on badges can anyone give any advice on this Machine Gun Corps badge with Gaunt plaque which is on sale on eBay Item number 380018449048

Many thanks,

Philip

[Luke H]

Hi Philip,

I don't like the way the left arch of the crown has been cut away seemingly in the stamping, having said that the age/patina and rear detail doesn't look bad and there also appears to be soldiers friend residue on the back, throw the Gaunt plate into the mix and I'm 6 of one half a dozen of the other on it.

I'm sure a collector of these badges would be able to give you a definite answer maybe from the position of the lugs etc.

That seller has some good stuff atm but also some rubbish so again its 50-50

Hard one to call I think... if I had to make a choice the years have taught me if in doubt walk away.

sorry I can't be of more help,

Cheers,

Luke

[guest_000]

The badge is genuine a bit of a factory second I would think but period striking for sure.

PAUL

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by paulbear

The badge is genuine a bit of a factory second I would think but period striking for sure.

PAUL

Hi Paul,

How can you tell, could you point out what to look for please?

Cheers,

Luke

[guest_000]

Hi the striking is correct also the lugs are seated correctly and are of the correct type. Nice to see the three lug set up on the common imperial badge also. Most fakes with the Gaunt disk use the round type in the centre from what I have observed especially on the NWMP badges

PAUL

[KLR]

Yes, I was interested in this one too but I magnified the photo of the plaque - confirmed any doubts I had !
Otherwise I grant you, it looks good BUT unless this is a prototype, the ACD records have the MGC badge with a 'vertical shank' ie slider.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by KLR

Yes, I was interested in this one too but I magnified the photo of the plaque - confirmed any doubts I had !
Otherwise I grant you, it looks good BUT unless this is a prototype, the ACD records have the MGC badge with a 'vertical shank' ie slider.

Julain,

I'd agree with you, there is a visible splattering of braze around the Gaunt plate but no signs of overspill or splattering around the braze points of the lugs. It makes me think the Gaunt plate was added later.

With all the Gaunt plate revelations of late, the fact the badge doesn't scream 'YES I'M RIGHT' at you and that seller is currently selling a few dodgey dodgey bit there is a substancial risk factor there IMO and if the ACD bible says vertical shank then it makes it academic for me - best off left.

Luke

[KLR]

I wouldn't be fussed that the plaque is placed crooked though the "mess" around the plaque is a bit susdpicious. It's the actual lettering being ? stippled, ie made by a series of dots that really stinks - any real plaque would be stamped !!

[Alan O]

I agree with Julian. Lugged MG badges are not a good sign. The plaque does not compare well to a genuine one. The lettering should indeed be stamped. I would not buy it.

Alan

[guest_000]

I don't know whether gaunt had a seperate contract with Canada for this type of badge with lugs but I personally would be adverse to seeing it with a slider. The lugs on this are correct what may be going on here is the disk may be an add on TO ENHANCE the badge sale .

PAUL

[Alan O]

Paul,

The lugs may be correct for a Canadian badge but the British MG Corps were only supplied with slidered versions. Julian has dug through the Army records which states that this was the case. If the lugs are Ok then it is not a British badge but may have been made for Canadians. I defer to the Canadian collectors knowlegde as to that one.

Alan

[guest_000]

I do have these with Canada banner three lug configuration ,this is why I got into the mix gentlemen. It would apprear then that Gaunt was catering to the two contracts and with the badge similarities there is little doubt that there was significant cross pollination of the types me thinks

PAUL

[KLR]

I haven't been able to get back until now. I rather think that particular badge has gone now, and I hope the buyer is very happy.

Right, there are two points to be made;
It was not the badge that I was concerned about, it looked very good, it may be Canadian for all I know.
What I am in very little doubt about was that the 'Gaunt plaque' itself was a fake. I cannot believe that a construction as bad as that came from that esteemed company. In any case, creating the lettering by hammering points takes a lot longer than stamping it !
As a number of people have pointed out, there does seem to be a rash of applying fake plaques to (mostly) real badges in order to increase their value !

As to the ACD records, yes I have been through them with a toothcomb but only in detail for the King's which is the unit I collect and research. Other things catch my eye every now and again (like the Welsh/Welch ref I copied here the other day for our Welsh collecting chums).
I'm interested in the MGC because my grandfather transferred to them from the Kings, so I made a quick note of the following
Badge - Forage Cap and Foreign Service Helmet, GM, sealed 29.12.1915 Pattern 8625/1915
Title with plate and pin. "M.G.C." sealed 29.12.1015, Pattern 8626/1915.
Officers collar badge, GM Bronzed, sealed 15.3.1916, Pattern 8708/1916
(I think I'm right in saying this was about the only piece of officer's insignia to be "issued")

You will see that I don't seem to have noted whether the cap badge was with a slider or loops, either there was no mention - unlikely - or I forgot to copy it out (I'll check next time I'm at Kew).
What I can tell you is that a large WO order of April 1916 specified, under the heading, 'Badges, Forage Cap - with vertical shank' 30,000 MGC badges (ptn 8625/1915) at a price/cost of 27 shillings per gross. So I would guess that it was originally sealed with a VS !

So, Canadian MGC badges may indeed have been made with loops - but you can't say they were definitely made by Gaunts from this example.

[guest_000]

I have an extensive CEF collection which includes much MG material and I assure you that this badge type with three lug configuation plain, with CANADA banner, with numeral and CANADA banner all with GAUNT plaque do in fact exist

PAUL

[KLR]

Paul, it's good to hear about the Canadian badges and I think there are things to be learnt by collectors on both sides of the pond about the similarities and differences between "empire" insignia in the 1st WW period.
The British Army Clothing Department did order some S African and a few colonial pieces but I haven't yet found any evidence (certainly during the 1st WW) that they had anything to do with the production or procurement of Canadian (or, eg, Australian) insignia.
Gaunts, as a private company, could and did make insignia for anyone, not just the British government. Why the Canadian MGC badges had loops and the British ones sliders I have no idea.
I would like to ask though, whether you have come across these crude stippled 'Gaunt' plaques on Canadian badges.
Julian
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