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  #16  
Old 13-07-20, 02:34 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercian View Post
I have noticed in the last few weeks there has been a lot of Victorian/Edwardian Cheshire Regiment badges on Ebay by various sellers, all are lugged and all have a round sweat hole in them, as these badges came into use in December 1900, and sliders started to come in circa 1903, to have six for sale this week at the same time makes me a bit suspicious, and also over the last few months several broached versions with a round sweat hole have also been for sale. My version of the badge has a slotted hole in comparison. I am I being a bit paranoid?
The dates of lugs is always a difficult one. However it was longer than 3 years. The cap badge in question was sealed in 1897 to replace the collar badge which was worn on the new FSC. The introduction of the New Pattern (aka Brodrick) cap in 1905 saw the cap badge sealed patterns changed to a long vertical shank. The replacement of the Brodrick from 1906 saw the length of the vertical shank shortened. However in reality lugs were worn on Brodricks and peaked caps where old stock was used up and some regiments were slow to change. For regiments in India and hot climes the FSC was worn up to 1914 so the lugged badges would have been used up to then,

The previous post about brasing holes being a sign of a gneuine badge is generally true for Vci and Edwardian badges but in WW1 many makers did not use them and by WW2 it was common not to have brsaing holes. I have lots of examples from my grandfather's WW2 badges.

Alan
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  #17  
Old 13-07-20, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by R.J. Bradshaw View Post
Hi, for what its worth, after a 18 months worth of studies in the lab at Derby University working on my dissertation -whose subject was the restrike problem- I found that most if not all genuine cap badges up to the Anodised Aluminium period have these gas-escape holes to allow the fumes from the high temperature gas braze that is only seen on genuine badges.
That’s not strictly accurate. Many manufacturers including a couple of early noted makers i.e. Tiptaft and Lambourne did not utilise braze holes when overlaying bi-metal badges as far back as during WW1.

I’d suspect as well some of the badges you are referring to are not ‘restrikes’ i.e. the original dies being used to make badges at a later date but rather fake dies newly produced en mass in the 1970s and beyond. The number of cap badges that have been restruck from original dies is comparatively small v’s new fake dies cut.

Conversely numerous restrikes and fakes do have braze holes such as Loyal Suffolk Hussars and Essex & Suffolk Cyclists respectively.

Whilst fakes more often than not do indeed lack braze holes as mentioned above they were not always ever-presents on genuine badges even in the relatively early decades of the 20th century and as time and manufacturing techniques progressed so did the numbers of badges manufactured without them.

That said it would appear that a couple of the main badge manufacturers i.e. Gaunt and Firmin were still using braze holes into the late 1940s / early 1950s. Additionally in the case of the badges in the opening post I would always expect to see braze holes on QVC/Edwardian era badges.
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  #18  
Old 15-07-20, 03:26 PM
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Default Cheshire Braze Holes

A lugged Cheshire Regiment I have. Looks like someone has made 4 failed attempts to drill a hole in the back then crudely cut or punched out out a slit. Guessing, like you do, I'd always assumed an unholed badge, which had come apart, and the repairer had identified the problem and set about rectifying it by creating a hole. If it's a fake, it's an incredible job (apart from the botched braze hole).
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  #19  
Old 15-07-20, 03:31 PM
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It’s a rectangular braze hole, as is often seen on these and many other badges.

The badge was manufactured that way it has not been repaired.

It’s genuine and dates from the late c.1890s-1903.
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  #20  
Old 15-07-20, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
It’s a rectangular braze hole, as is often seen on these and many other badges.

The badge was manufactured that way it has not been repaired.

It’s genuine and dates from the late c.1890s-1903.
Excellent Luke! Thanks for that. Somehow always expect braze holes to be rather better done than that. Mike
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  #21  
Old 15-07-20, 05:29 PM
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The NAM offloaded a huge amount of badges a few years ago, some went through DNW who auctioned large lots of Gaunt stock including multiple examples of the same badge. I bought what I believe is a salesman’s Cheshire’s from one of the successful bidders, while it is not a looped version, there may have been a number of them in the auction, I’m sure their online archive is still available.

The point I’m making is that from time to time a glut of things do appear.
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  #22  
Old 09-08-20, 11:05 PM
R.J. Bradshaw R.J. Bradshaw is offline
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Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
That’s not strictly accurate. Many manufacturers including a couple of early noted makers i.e. Tiptaft and Lambourne did not utilise braze holes when overlaying bi-metal badges as far back as during WW1.

I’d suspect as well some of the badges you are referring to are not ‘restrikes’ i.e. the original dies being used to make badges at a later date but rather fake dies newly produced en mass in the 1970s and beyond. The number of cap badges that have been restruck from original dies is comparatively small v’s new fake dies cut.

Conversely numerous restrikes and fakes do have braze holes such as Loyal Suffolk Hussars and Essex & Suffolk Cyclists respectively.

Whilst fakes more often than not do indeed lack braze holes as mentioned above they were not always ever-presents on genuine badges even in the relatively early decades of the 20th century and as time and manufacturing techniques progressed so did the numbers of badges manufactured without them.

That said it would appear that a couple of the main badge manufacturers i.e. Gaunt and Firmin were still using braze holes into the late 1940s / early 1950s. Additionally in the case of the badges in the opening post I would always expect to see braze holes on QVC/Edwardian era badges.
It was as accurate as I could make it based on observation. Scientific and otherwise handling the real thing over many years learning through trusted dealers etc. Aside from rare exceptions (there are always exceptions) and the usual amount of deceitful hair-splitting, restrike badges, as I observed, dont get the solder right, or indeed the composite alloy known as guilding metal or its white brass counterpart which were both arrived upon for their ductility. Yes, some restrikes have these holes but you can usually tell from the solder, which was an industry standard that even the skilled repairers, (a couple of whom allowed me to watch them work) could not reproduce due to its heat and volatility. As usual, the truth is in the evidence, and the evidence is in the detail.
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  #23  
Old 10-08-20, 12:18 AM
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Have had this badge lying about for quite awhile now. Had to clean it up as it was rather nasty, hence the lugs not the dark cherry they were. Not the quality I would expect but?

CB
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  #24  
Old 10-08-20, 08:08 AM
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Could you clarify that, I would have said there are few badges that have been remade using original dies these days and the vast majority are actually completely spurious fakes.

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Originally Posted by R.J. Bradshaw View Post
and the usual amount of deceitful hair-splitting, restrike badges,

Last edited by Frank Kelley; 10-08-20 at 08:33 AM.
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  #25  
Old 10-08-20, 02:48 PM
R.J. Bradshaw R.J. Bradshaw is offline
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Yes, I would tend to agree with that. The "hair splitting" I mentioned over whether the original die was used or not is mostly irrelevant because, the restrikers either could not obtain or failed to get the exact, MOD designated alloy right, (which greatly affects the colour of a badge) and because of the difficulty inherent in its use, high-temperature solder used to affix lugs and sliders isnt correct either, which was also a tried and tested industry standard, not used for many years before restrikes became the problem outlined by Frederick Wilkinsons additional notes in his 1970's publications, which these people could just not reproduce well enough.

Most badges I examined, where compostite alloys were used, employed these gas-escape vents, and the badges that diddnt need them like the bi-metal Notts & Derby, West Yorks and Lincolnshire Regiments to name but a few, always had the same manufacturing characteristics. There are a few notable exceptions however such as The Royal Artillery badges of c. WW1 which have a pair of half-loops either side of a slider, (behind the ubique scroll) which is also folded over at the top, for added strength at what was clearly a weak point. Some of the cavalry regiments with fine detail (which often broke off) also had strengthening strips added, especially in the lances and I had 9th and 5th Lancers badges in my collection that had these. I also cannot speak for "Tiptaft" marks on sliders as I never saw or tested any. I thought Tiptaft mainly made C.E.F. badges, which at the time of my study had not suffered from the re-strike problem, so I left those well alone. I hear that has changed now? Officers bronzes were also not copied at that time. I have seen some of the ones mentioned like the Loyal Suffolk Hussars, but again, the devil is in the detail and they just dont get the solder right.

As for all these badges turning up now with named sliders, I never saw any Lambourne marked sliders either, even in the mid 60's when I started collecting British military badges, and having had many hundreds of badges through my hands over the years, the only makers mark I noted was on the C.E.F's as reported in the Charlton catalogues and those tiny Gaunt tabs, so I cannot speak for the ones with incised names on sliders, but for the ones I have seen I tended to leave well alone, which was just my own predilection.

Last edited by R.J. Bradshaw; 12-08-20 at 11:25 PM. Reason: addendum
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  #26  
Old 16-08-20, 09:36 AM
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Well, quite frankly, when I look at badges, I always take into account the materials and method of manufacture used before looking at details, which for me at least is usually enough.
Tiptaft did make CEF badges, but, they also made very many others including, interestingly, the Cheshire Regiment.
I am rather surprised that you never encountered a Lambourne badge, given the sheer volume they produced, they always turned up in mature collections.


Quote:
Originally Posted by R.J. Bradshaw View Post
Yes, I would tend to agree with that. The "hair splitting" I mentioned over whether the original die was used or not is mostly irrelevant because, the restrikers either could not obtain or failed to get the exact, MOD designated alloy right, (which greatly affects the colour of a badge) and because of the difficulty inherent in its use, high-temperature solder used to affix lugs and sliders isnt correct either, which was also a tried and tested industry standard, not used for many years before restrikes became the problem outlined by Frederick Wilkinsons additional notes in his 1970's publications, which these people could just not reproduce well enough.

Most badges I examined, where compostite alloys were used, employed these gas-escape vents, and the badges that diddnt need them like the bi-metal Notts & Derby, West Yorks and Lincolnshire Regiments to name but a few, always had the same manufacturing characteristics. There are a few notable exceptions however such as The Royal Artillery badges of c. WW1 which have a pair of half-loops either side of a slider, (behind the ubique scroll) which is also folded over at the top, for added strength at what was clearly a weak point. Some of the cavalry regiments with fine detail (which often broke off) also had strengthening strips added, especially in the lances and I had 9th and 5th Lancers badges in my collection that had these. I also cannot speak for "Tiptaft" marks on sliders as I never saw or tested any. I thought Tiptaft mainly made C.E.F. badges, which at the time of my study had not suffered from the re-strike problem, so I left those well alone. I hear that has changed now? Officers bronzes were also not copied at that time. I have seen some of the ones mentioned like the Loyal Suffolk Hussars, but again, the devil is in the detail and they just dont get the solder right.

As for all these badges turning up now with named sliders, I never saw any Lambourne marked sliders either, even in the mid 60's when I started collecting British military badges, and having had many hundreds of badges through my hands over the years, the only makers mark I noted was on the C.E.F's as reported in the Charlton catalogues and those tiny Gaunt tabs, so I cannot speak for the ones with incised names on sliders, but for the ones I have seen I tended to leave well alone, which was just my own predilection.
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  #27  
Old 20-08-20, 07:23 AM
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I don't think that I've ever seen a Tiptaft made Cheshire Regiment without a hole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
That’s not strictly accurate. Many manufacturers including a couple of early noted makers i.e. Tiptaft and Lambourne did not utilise braze holes when overlaying bi-metal badges as far back as during WW1.
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