WOW! (SEM-EDX BADGE ANALYSIS)

[lew shotton]

Morning Gentlemen,
After reading all your posts on this badge.I have removed it from my site for the time being.I have now cleaned this badge and even more convinced it is genuine.I have put it to one side to consult with other dealers who i have trust in.I am sorry to have lost a possiable customer over this badge.As you all know some of these repro badges are not easy to spot.After looking at the reference work Anatomy of a restrike ( Section A ) a good guide to the Cavalry fakes.The author states he has never seen fake copy of the 2nd Queens bays and would welcome any information.
If in the future you wish to use pictures from my web site please ask i have never yet refused.Any other comments welcome good or bad.Cheers Lew & Garry Clanfield Militaria

[wright241]

As I provided the badges that are in the album -

I would strongly suggest that the badges I have provided the cavalry project should be be removed as they are obviously not the real McCoy.of the three that I have. I thought I had better take pics of all three. These all originated from Walter Lambert before he passed away. I would strongly suggest that the badges I have provided the cavalry project with should be be removed as they are obviously not the real McCoy. Undoubtedly the legitimacy of the others I have provided will also be questioned - so best to remove them all... Yes?

Of the 3 pairs of pics that I have posted, the "brighter" is the one I sent to Mike and is the one being queried in this post. Of the other two, was has had strengthener pins applied to either side of the crown, the other is just a little dull.

Before submitting them to Mike for addition to the Cavalry Project album I checked the lug fittings and finish on all 3 as "O/R" quality badges and all 3 seemed fine to me. To save any more embarrassment to me and the cavalry forum on badges submitted to the cavalry project, maybe all badges should be reviewed before they get put into the album for a 100% agreement on their authenticity. In the meantime, it might be prudent to get every single cavalry badge that I have submitted to be vetted/assessed for authenticity - remove them all and let someone else make a contribution.
My apologies.

It also looks as if I will have to treat any of Walter Lamberts badges as being dodgy.

Regards, David

[Rockape]

David, lets not be hasty now....

I would like to take this on as a private work project. In my day job I am a forensic scientist and work in Cambridge UK. I have at my disposal a range of spectroscopic, chromatographic and microscopic techniques. This will be privately funded by myself as I have a personal interest in it. I would like to hear from anyone who thinks they have a genuine or dud badge (pm me is best and I will then operate by email:

The best option is to send the badge to me for analysis. However, many will feel uncomfortable doing that as they don't know me. So an alternative is:

Decent camera with macro on, or high resolution scanned images of all parts of the front and rear of the badge. Best strategy is to break each badge as four areas (quarters) each side. I also need an oblique image of the loops, unless it has been re-looped. So 9 images for each badge in total.

If members want to send their badge to me, I can use the scanning electron microscope with energy dispersive X-Rays (SEM-EDX) to determine elemental composition. Badges of that period would have had a general formula for the mix of metals, and badges made later will not have the same percentages of elements.

I will compile a report and publish it here on the forum.

Garry

[ncc]

Originally Posted by Rockape

David, lets not be hasty now....

I would like to take this on as a private work project. In my day job I am a forensic scientist and work in Cambridge UK. I have at my disposal a range of spectroscopic, chromatographic and microscopic techniques. This will be privately funded by myself as I have a personal interest in it. I would like to hear from anyone who thinks they have a genuine or dud badge (pm me is best and I will then operate by email:

The best option is to send the badge to me for analysis. However, many will feel uncomfortable doing that as they don't know me. So an alternative is:

Decent camera with macro on, or high resolution scanned images of all parts of the front and rear of the badge. Best strategy is to break each badge as four areas (quarters) each side. I also need an oblique image of the loops, unless it has been re-looped. So 9 images for each badge in total.

If members want to send their badge to me, I can use the scanning electron microscope with energy dispersive X-Rays (SEM-EDX) to determine elemental composition. Badges of that period would have had a general formula for the mix of metals, and badges made later will not have the same percentages of elements.

I will compile a report and publish it here on the forum.

Garry

if you do a XRF analysis of the vic bays pictured in the cavalry section,i'll bet a tenner its right.
Bob

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by wright241

As I provided the badges that are in the album -

I would strongly suggest that the badges I have provided the cavalry project should be be removed as they are obviously not the real McCoy.of the three that I have. I thought I had better take pics of all three. These all originated from Walter Lambert before he passed away. I would strongly suggest that the badges I have provided the cavalry project with should be be removed as they are obviously not the real McCoy. Undoubtedly the legitimacy of the others I have provided will also be questioned - so best to remove them all... Yes?

Of the 3 pairs of pics that I have posted, the "brighter" is the one I sent to Mike and is the one being queried in this post. Of the other two, was has had strengthener pins applied to either side of the crown, the other is just a little dull.

Before submitting them to Mike for addition to the Cavalry Project album I checked the lug fittings and finish on all 3 as "O/R" quality badges and all 3 seemed fine to me. To save any more embarrassment to me and the cavalry forum on badges submitted to the cavalry project, maybe all badges should be reviewed before they get put into the album for a 100% agreement on their authenticity. In the meantime, it might be prudent to get every single cavalry badge that I have submitted to be vetted/assessed for authenticity - remove them all and let someone else make a contribution.
My apologies.

It also looks as if I will have to treat any of Walter Lamberts badges as being dodgy.

Regards, David

David,

I thought that the Bays badge in the project was my one (see my post about the rear above). If not mine is identical to the one you've just posted and as I said earlier I'm happy with it, all the more so now I know yours is ex-Walter Lambert

I'm in full agreement with you and the pictures I submitted can also be removed.

Gaz, I'll happily sent you mine for analysis, please pm my your address.

Keith

[Mike]

David, I think the QVC badge in the cav album project is Keith's? Although I have a horrible feeling I've lost the reference to 'who contributed what' on pages in there with more than one badge image donor.

Re: XRF analysis

I've been hoping someone would do this at some point but we need absolutely positive genuine items as a reference?

I'll move this thread to the 'forum projects' sub-forum and re-title, it looks like it's going to be important.

[Rockape]

Originally Posted by Mike

David, I think the QVC badge in the cav album project is Keith's? Although I have a horrible feeling I've lost the reference to 'who contributed what' on pages in there with more than one badge image donor.

Re: XRF analysis

I've been hoping someone would do this at some point but we need absolutely positive genuine items as a reference?

I'll move this thread to the 'forum projects' sub-forum and re-title, it looks like it's going to be important.

Mike: Agreed, a standard must be used and that has to be an absolute genuine badge. If we cannot find one, then a comparison study will be undertaken instead.

Keith: I will send my email address in due course and to any others thinking of contributing to the project also.

[lew shotton]

Garry,
If you want the badge in question just let me know more than happy to send it.You can contact me anytime.Cheers Garry & Lew

[2747andy]

I’m sorry if yet again, I have cast doubt on anyone’s prized possessions or items for sale, however can I please assure everyone that it is always done with the best intentions and if proven wrong I will concede without hesitation. It is better to raise concerns IMO and be proven wrong, than to do nothing and see fellow collectors pay good money for items which could turn out to be reproduction.

Andy

[Unknownsoldier]

Rockape.... whereabouts you based, by pm if preferred....

Tom

[sketchley kid]

Where's 'Cardiff Bloke' when you want him?

[Rockape]

The physical, chemical, biological and elemental analysis of items requires absolute genuine items as a benchmark. Subsequent items are measured against this benchmark in either a qualitative or quantitative manner. For example a fingerprint is found at a crime scene. The fingerprint is captured and matched to a database of fingerprints (in effect standards). A match is either 'found' or 'not found' and further tests may be necessary to absolutely identify the print belonging to a particular person. With regard to the project I will need a QVC Bays badge that is without doubt genuine and that will be the standard I measure everything else by.

In this project I will not be doing a series of tests using different instruments to determine absolute proof of identity as it would be rather expensive. As it says in the title, I will be using energy dispersive X-Rays (EDX) to determine elemental composition. The results will determine with 95% confidence the elemental composition of the specimen. The results will be semi-quantitative in that a series of X-Rays will be fired in sequence at the specimen and will provide mathematical values that I will be able to interpret and then I will simplify things in my report so that non-specialists can understand it.

[magpie]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

I’m sorry if yet again, I have cast doubt on anyone’s prized possessions or items for sale, however can I please assure everyone that it is always done with the best intentions and if proven wrong I will concede without hesitation. It is better to raise concerns IMO and be proven wrong, than to do nothing and see fellow collectors pay good money for items which could turn out to be reproduction.

Andy

Andy, I think you are right to raise this badge but for a slightly different reason, the badge apears to have a pitted surface in the picture which to me means to me that it has either

1) been in the ground for a long time and relugged as they look new(ish) how much would you pay for a metal detector find ? / or been left to corrode with verdigris somewhere like an old damp shed/cupboard or loft.

2) it is not a die stamped badge but has been cast.
Andy

Unless the badge is extemely rare and only a few made in 1 batch you should take into account that old Gilding metals could range from 80-95% copper, and unless maker marked you probably don't know who made it or what grades that or other companys could have used in production, which company made the metal in what year/month/day or even part of that the billet was made that was then rolled out to make the sheet to make that badge or any other .

Andy.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

I’m sorry if yet again, I have cast doubt on anyone’s prized possessions or items for sale, however can I please assure everyone that it is always done with the best intentions and if proven wrong I will concede without hesitation. It is better to raise concerns IMO and be proven wrong, than to do nothing and see fellow collectors pay good money for items which could turn out to be reproduction.

Andy

What I see here is, a reasonable, pretty civilized debate. A dealer willing to engage, discuss the opinions, even take the item down from sale while things are investigated. How different from how some other dealers chose to react to such events.

I know which one I would buy from.

I am really intreagued by the general analysis approach suggested by Rockape, I would love to follow this effort to see what the findings are. I am happy to see Clanfield Militaria offer up sample to help the effort, how refreshing to see a dealer try to move forward the fight against fakes.

[Mike]

So have we - anyone - got one of these badges that they are certain is a copy?

I'm thinking it might be better to start this process with a badge that has a healthy amount of originals and copies in existence. WW1 Tyneside Scottish would be ideal, but that would only give data on white metal.

What would be good test subject in gilding metal that has plenty of originals and copies?

Or should you collect data on the metals of the classic 'gaunt with a dot' re-strikes and see if there is a difference with the gilding metal of original WW1 badges for instance?

The 'dream come true' result would be if some minor element occurs in original metals that is absent in copies. [fingers crossed]