Period worn? - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Frank Kelley · #1 25-10-20, 01:22 PM

Please would one of you Welsh collectors have a look at the attached.

Luke H · #2 25-10-20, 01:37 PM

Not a Welsh collector but looks very likely WW1 to me in terms of quality of strike and that slider.

KLR · #3 25-10-20, 09:44 PM

Pembroke Yeomanry (Castlemartin)
The Territorial Year Book (1909) notes this unit appeared in 1908 but there are no details of the cap badge. The TF badges were only catalogued and given central TF badges by the WO in 1915/16

This particular badge was authorised on 12.04.1916 as Pattern 9287/1916. This is the BM badge. I'm afraid that can't find when this badge was made obsolete.

The second pattern Pattern 556A/1916 was in all GM

(I'm sorry that I have not got to grips with yeomanry yet!)

3dg · #4 25-10-20, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLR

Pembroke Yeomanry (Castlemartin)
The Territorial Year Book (1909) notes this unit appeared in 1908 but there are no details of the cap badge. The TF badges were only catalogued and given central TF badges by the WO in 1915/16

This particular badge was authorised on 12.04.1916 as Pattern 9287/1916. This is the BM badge. I'm afraid that can't find when this badge was made obsolete.

The second pattern Pattern 556A/1916 was in all GM

(I'm sorry that I have not got to grips with yeomanry yet!)

The badge before the BM one was the BM PoW feathers with the WM Fishguard scroll, there are many photos of this being worn.
I didn't know the BM badge was 1916, that's interesting information.
Thank you

Chris

KLR · #5 26-10-20, 08:22 AM

Although the Terr Yr Bk did not list a badge for the unit, it is probable that one existed from 1908. (Many units did not respond with badge details)

I'm puzzled by your mention of

"The badge before the BM one was the BM PoW feathers with the WM Fishguard scroll"
The BM Fishguard one was the original badge!

What I was saying is that they did not have official WO Patterns until 1915/1916.
Incidentally, there are two known dies - something to do with the scroll, I'll try and find it.

3dg · #6 26-10-20, 08:42 AM

Sprry, it was my assumption as I've a photo dated 1911, and a couple more from 1914 to 15 and all are wearing the WM scroll version, so I assumed it was the badge pre GM scroll auterised 1916?
I've never been sure of the when's and where's of the WM and GM scrolls, hopefully ill find out now.
Cheers for this, and sorry to Frank for highjacking his thread.

Chris

Frank Kelley · #7 26-10-20, 09:37 AM

Really no need to be sorry, quite frankly, I find Yeomanry badges a pain, certainly from memory, at least, the Pembroke Yeomanry in their original form "appeared" rather earlier than 1908, in about 1830, but, it matters not one bit to me.

How is this badge actually described by the War Office, does it make actual reference to both the scroll and crown both being made in gilding metal, because if it does not, then it might be describing another badge with simply the crown being in gilding metal?
Hugh King makes no mention of the badge in my copy of volume one, stating
"the coronet in gilding metal, remainder in white metal also all in white metal, all in gilding metal and in bronze"

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLR

Pembroke Yeomanry (Castlemartin)
The Territorial Year Book (1909) notes this unit appeared in 1908 but there are no details of the cap badge. The TF badges were only catalogued and given central TF badges by the WO in 1915/16

This particular badge was authorised on 12.04.1916 as Pattern 9287/1916. This is the BM badge. I'm afraid that can't find when this badge was made obsolete.

The second pattern Pattern 556A/1916 was in all GM

(I'm sorry that I have not got to grips with yeomanry yet!)

Frank Kelley · #8 27-10-20, 08:19 AM

Well, me neither, but, Hugh King stated in his volume 2 stated that the badge was sealed on the 18th of July 1952, which is simply why I asked the question.
I think that this particular example appears to be perhaps older.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke H

Not a Welsh collector but looks very likely WW1 to me in terms of quality of strike and that slider.

mike_vee · #9 27-10-20, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Well, me neither, but, Hugh King stated in his volume 2 stated that the badge was sealed on the 18th of July 1952, which is simply why I asked the question.
I think that this particular example appears to be perhaps older.

Details of 1952 collar from IWM:

"the Prince of Wales's plumes, coronet and motto above a scroll inscribed Fishguard; coronet and scroll in gilding metal, remainder in white metal"

BADGE, WORKING PATTERN, PEMBROKE YEOMANRY

.

41st · #10 27-10-20, 08:06 PM

Hi Frank,
Yours looks to be one of the later variants of this badge. I’ll dig out what I have & give you a time line as best I can. In the meantime here are mine to the Pembs Yeo.
Hwyl
Kevin

3dg · #11 27-10-20, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 41st

Hi Frank,
Yours looks to be one of the later variants of this badge. I’ll dig out what I have & give you a time line as best I can. In the meantime here are mine to the Pembs Yeo.
Hwyl
Kevin

I too will look forward to a timeline, I have one the same as the WM scroll ones second in from the right.
Superb collection! Thank you for sharing.

Chris

Luke H · #12 27-10-20, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Well, me neither, but, Hugh King stated in his volume 2 stated that the badge was sealed on the 18th of July 1952, which is simply why I asked the question.
I think that this particular example appears to be perhaps older.

I believe these are the same POW plumes on this SH spelling Welsh Regiment. https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...pictureid=7581

The jewel sequence in the coronet looks identical in terms of shape and orientation. Also the raised die flaw on the right hand feather near its outer edge.

Could the die have been in use for +30 years... not impossible. Like you my feelings are that it is a far earlier badge than 1950s.

When it comes to Yeomanry and their badges nothing frankly surprises me.

Frank Kelley · #13 29-10-20, 08:18 AM

Yes indeed, but, as expected, I was not casting any doubt whatsoever upon the date given by Hugh King.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mike_vee

Details of 1952 collar from IWM:

"the Prince of Wales's plumes, coronet and motto above a scroll inscribed Fishguard; coronet and scroll in gilding metal, remainder in white metal"

BADGE, WORKING PATTERN, PEMBROKE YEOMANRY

.

Alan O · #14 29-10-20, 06:12 PM

It may have been re-sealed in 1952 after a period of the regt wearing a RA badge?

41st · #15 29-10-20, 07:28 PM

Please bear with me on the timeline as I will be working backwards as I retrieve my notes from the various places I've stashed them.
The easy bit is the last pattern badges.

I have the a/a collars issued to A troop, 224 (West Wales) Squadron, RCT on 15.03.81. My notes state that this was to the Pembroke Troop only and that all squadrons were issued with them from 21.02.87

I can confirm that from 1920 when the Pembs Yeo became 102nd Field Regiment RA they were badged as RA but the officers were wearing bronze regimental pattern collars again by 1938 with standard RA cap badges. I do have a reference to regimental badges again being worn by 146th Field Reg't in 1942 when shipped out to Egypt, but I haven't been able to establish yet whether this was just the officers collars again although I would presume so.

With regards to the badge under discussion the notes I made at the IWM concur with what has already been posted in that the subject badge appears to be Pattern No. 15161 11.08.52.
I have the subsequent a/a cap badge Pattern No. 18732 as appraised 14.11.67 although another note I made at the time suggests that the Firmin sealed pattern badge dates from 1962. In my defence I was rushing to take down as much information as I could in one visit.

What I can state at this time for the earlier badges is that no regimental pattern cap badges were worn during the Boer War. The first pattern cap badges were white metal with a gilding metal crown only and most photographs show the pattern with the motto scrolls down on the title scroll. Brookies has however got a couple of photos to prove that variants with the motto scrolls up were also worn pre Great War.

I have seen an Edwardian period officer's dress cap with an all silver cap badge on so presume that all white metal ORs badges must have been worn but have no evidence of this at the present.

The big problem is their records have been spread far and wide. So far i've been to IWM, Scolton Manor where the bulk of them used to be stored (but gone by the time I got there), Tenby Musuem (very helpful staff and great for the early Victorian stuff), Pembroke Castle and Haverfordwest County Archives. All without much success so far.