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  #106  
Old 06-12-15, 09:55 AM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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Following some research in sources other than badge books, this is a record of the regt's movements and what headgear they wore:

1891: India: Bangalore
1896: India: Secunderabad

At this period Field Service Caps were introduced; most used collars as cap badges.

1899: South Africa: Ladysmith

Photos exist of the regt wearing single scroll elephants on slouch hats.

1902: Regiment re-designated as the 19th (Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own) Hussars. Return to UK. At this point I would expect the regt to replace the slouch hat with OR's pill box hats with no badges. Although officially obsolete it seems that many cavalry regts continued to wear them. SD would be worn with a coloured side cap.

1903: Ireland: Curragh
1908: England: Norwich
1910: England: Aldershot
1912: England: Hounslow Barracks

Pill box caps were favoured by the regt and there is no photographic evidence of the regt adopting Brodrick caps in 103-05. However other cavalry regts did so it cannot be ruled out. ORs adopted peaked caps in the Army 1905-06 but agin there is no start date for the 19th Hussars adoption of them. By 1910 I would expect the regt to be in khaki with khaki caps with Dannebord cross. They would be in No 1 dress with pill box caps at the start of the decade and later FSC. I am struggling to find photos from this period.

1914: Great War. Photos exist of the regt in WW1 with the Danneborg Cross cap badge.


1920: India: Muttra.

Regt is wearing no scroll FSH badges introduced in 1920. Danneborg Cross on caps.

1921: Tidworth for disbandment.

11 Apr 1921 AO no 133 approves the reconstitution of the 5thL/19thH/20thH/21L and merged with other regts.

11 Apr 1922: Amalgmation and C Sqn formed with 15/19th Hussars. C Sqn continued to wear the 19 H cap badge in Tidworth 1921-22 as recorded in the letters page of the 15/19th Hussars Journal of 1963.

25 Jan 1924: Disembark Port Said. C Sqn wearing FSH with 1920 elephant scroll-less badge. 15H Sqns do not have a FSH badge.

1928-34: India - as above.

1933: Regtl Title change to Kings Royal Hussars and then back to 15th/19th Hussars. 19th badges are no longer worn.

This does not answer the double elephant scroll badge. My personal view is that they were a prototype badge, possibly only for officers, and rejected by the regt.

To summarise

1897-99 UK FSC (collars)
1899-1902 S.Africa Slouch (Single scroll elephant)
1903-06 UK Pill Box Cap - badgeless, unknown on Brodrick from 1905? Danneborg cross on peaked cap in SD as early as 1907.
1907-22 UK & Europe As above and peaked cap in khaki.
1922-34 India/Egypt FSH (No scroll elephant)

Some headgear would be worn alongside each other but the badges would be different.
For example there is a photo on the LD website of the 19H in 1904 and the slouch hat and FSC are both shown.
Any comments?

Last edited by Alan O; 13-03-19 at 01:40 PM.
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  #107  
Old 06-12-15, 08:42 PM
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Bosley's have a 19H pagri in their sale. Wrong dates but it has 3 loops.

http://www.mycommissionbid.com/bid/viewitem.php?id=291
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  #108  
Old 06-12-15, 09:54 PM
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No elephants but though may be of interest from 'Military Collectables'.
Can only post one image at a time as using iPhone. 19th Hussars circa 1904.
Tony.
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Last edited by tonyb; 24-08-19 at 03:58 PM.
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  #109  
Old 07-12-15, 08:03 PM
alan g alan g is offline
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I take the elephant facing the other way is the arm badge ?
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  #110  
Old 07-12-15, 08:12 PM
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Hi Alan
If you look in my New additions album you will see a 19th Hussars arm badge.
All the best
Malc
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  #111  
Old 22-12-15, 09:46 PM
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Dress Regulations for the Army 1904 p. 70-71:
19th (Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own) Hussars. On Collar of Tunic, Mess Jacket, and Frock Coat: The Dagmar Cross, in silver
On the Puggaree and Cloth Forage Cap: In silver, the elephant, with a scroll below inscribed "19th (Alexandra P.W.O.) Hussars."
On the Service Dress: On the collar in bronze: As for forage cap, but in pairs, and smaller.
On the cap in bronze: As for forage cap.

Rgds, Thomas.
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  #112  
Old 23-12-15, 08:24 AM
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So if I read this right it is saying that the rget wore the single scroll elephant on pugarees and also officer wore it on No 1 dress peaked forage caps. Yet we know that officers wore crosses in peaked caps later that decade. On their return to UK from South Africa, ORs were probably wearing pill box hats with no badges. This why I suspect the end of use of the single scroll elephant is given as 1902 in some books as the regt was not wearing FSH or slouch hats in UK.

But when the regulations state that in Service Dress (khaki SD) the Cross is worn. It's a bit confusing as the collars are crosses. However this is shown in photos pre WW1 and during the war.

So when it says 'On the Service Dress: On the collar in bronze: As for forage cap, but in pairs and smaller.' means the cap badges were crosses as well?

So was it elephants for FSH pugarees and ORs coloured No 1 dress peaked caps but crosses for khaki SD and side caps? The dating of these badges has always been sequential but in fact it appears to have overlapped depending on the type of hat worn.

Last edited by Alan O; 23-12-15 at 03:54 PM.
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  #113  
Old 24-12-15, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
But when the regulations state that in Service Dress (khaki SD) the Cross is worn. It's a bit confusing as the collars are crosses. However this is shown in photos pre WW1 and during the war.

So when it says 'On the Service Dress: On the collar in bronze: As for forage cap, but in pairs and smaller.' means the cap badges were crosses as well?

So was it elephants for FSH pugarees and ORs coloured No 1 dress peaked caps but crosses for khaki SD and side caps? The dating of these badges has always been sequential but in fact it appears to have overlapped depending on the type of hat worn.
It doesn't state Crosses are worn on SD.

I read it the other way round, on the service dress the collar badges are as the forage cap badge (In silver, the elephant, with a scroll below inscribed "19th (Alexandra P.W.O.) Hussars.") but in bronze, and as they are described as 'in pairs' I suppose they are facing.

Crosses for collars except SD, all else elephants.

Rgds, Thomas.
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  #114  
Old 24-12-15, 07:12 AM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20495/lot/180/

This is an interesting collection circa 1903/04. The 19H single scroll elephant badge is flanked by elephant collars which matches your dress regs. These are brass OR badges and of a similar design to the larger 1920 pagri badge. They also appear identical to the Connaughts' collars.

The OR's cap badge in the Bonham's collection is the 'wrong' scroll title for the 1904 dress regs; which do suggest that the double scroll badge with 'Alexandra' in the title was the official officers' badge at the time. I can't say that I have ever heard of a Bronze double scroll badge though.

Last edited by Alan O; 24-12-15 at 07:36 AM.
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  #115  
Old 04-11-17, 03:53 PM
marjo marjo is offline
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Hello,

this is mine, has nice details
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  #116  
Old 05-11-17, 04:07 PM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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That is not a copy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
Here's my copy of the first type.

Noticed the same marks on the reverse of the animal's upper back on this badge as Malc's badge - out of the same die I think. wonder who is making these things?





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  #117  
Old 11-02-18, 06:39 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=93589

A really good picture of the single scroll elephant badge in use on the slouch hat. The badge went out of use in 1902 as the regiment returned to UK and the elephant was not worn on pill box hats.
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  #118  
Old 19-05-18, 10:44 AM
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leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is offline
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A spur of the moment purchase, came across it, no time to check the forum before buying it or now due to matters beyond my control (visitors), is it a good one please or have I come unstuck?
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  #119  
Old 19-05-18, 11:19 AM
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Hello Leigh

I think you've done OK, it looks good IMO. I have one very similar that has been pin Brooched, possibly for Sweetheart etc.

Rob
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  #120  
Old 19-05-18, 11:36 AM
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Phew - it looked ok to me, but from images on a phone and I didn't have time to "research".
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