Transvaal Scottish.

[rmarsden]

Transvaal 8th Infantry badge in gilt 63x63 mm in size. No service wear lettering very crisp. Is this an officers badge? are those tang fittings for helmet wear?
Ron.

[Traist]

This is a nice example. I would say that it is for wear on a helmet. Regards Andrew

[iaindh]

Hi Ron,

I must admit, I haven't seen one with blades before, very nice.

On the subject of the the Transvaal Scottish, I have a question.

Owen's has 608, the Transvaal Scottish Volunteers cap badge as being worn from 1906 - 1911 and then the badge we all know, 611 being worn from 1921 to date by the Transvaal Scottish 8th Infantry. The Transvaal Scottish Volunteers became the Transvaal Scottish Regt in 1913. What was worn in these interim periods?
They did serve in GSWA and they wore helmets, did they just wear flashes on the helmets? Even so, on their Glengarrys, they would have had a badge.
I do have a NMR helmet of that period with flashes on both sides and the badge on the front.

Does anyone have any answers please?

regards, Iain

[rmarsden]

The reason I wondered if it was a helmet badge is photos I have seen show a square tartan patch on the helmet, and a diamond shape on other headress.
Ron.

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Iain,
Reginald Cox was very clear on this, in his famous book, he stated "It should be noted that badges with the correct title of "8th Infantry Transvaaal Scottish" did not come into use until after the war"
I do not and indeed, have not, ever doubted that since I started to collect badges!
Have you got the wartime 2nd Battalion Helmet badge for German Southwest Africa?
Much as I regard Colin Owen, the book often leaves much to be desired.
Kind regards Frank

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi Ron,

I must admit, I haven't seen one with blades before, very nice.

On the subject of the the Transvaal Scottish, I have a question.

Owen's has 608, the Transvaal Scottish Volunteers cap badge as being worn from 1906 - 1911 and then the badge we all know, 611 being worn from 1921 to date by the Transvaal Scottish 8th Infantry. The Transvaal Scottish Volunteers became the Transvaal Scottish Regt in 1913. What was worn in these interim periods?
They did serve in GSWA and they wore helmets, did they just wear flashes on the helmets? Even so, on their Glengarrys, they would have had a badge.
I do have a NMR helmet of that period with flashes on both sides and the badge on the front.

Does anyone have any answers please?

regards, Iain

[iaindh]

Hi Frank,

thanks for the input.

No I dont have the wartime 2nd Battalion Helmet badge for German Southwest Africa, I'm dont know if I've seen one? Do you have one to post?

I know Colin Owen's book has many flaws but, often, it's all we have to refer to.

I currently dont have a book on the TS, it is also on my want list

kind regards, Iain

[Brian Conyngham]

Originally Posted by iaindh

Hi Frank,

thanks for the input.

No I dont have the wartime 2nd Battalion Helmet badge for German Southwest Africa, I'm dont know if I've seen one? Do you have one to post?

I know Colin Owen's book has many flaws but, often, it's all we have to refer to.

I currently dont have a book on the TS, it is also on my want list

kind regards, Iain

Iain

The history of the TS appears to have been published in 3 volumes, I have the WW2 volume. Had a chance to purchase the 3rd Volume covering the Border War period but the guy wanted a crazy price!

I will keep a look out for you but these books are seldom seen down here in Durban.

Regards
Brian

[Brian Conyngham]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Iain,
Reginald Cox was very clear on this, in his famous book, he stated "It should be noted that badges with the correct title of "8th Infantry Transvaaal Scottish" did not come into use until after the war"
I do not and indeed, have not, ever doubted that since I started to collect badges!
Have you got the wartime 2nd Battalion Helmet badge for German Southwest Africa?
Much as I regard Colin Owen, the book often leaves much to be desired.
Kind regards Frank

Frank

Yes, I have to agree with you about Owens. It would appear Owen just publish his own amazing collection and not the difinitive issues of all SA Badges. Some of his deductions are crazy as well, one that springs to mind is the SATC shoulder title...he has it as the South African Trades Company WW1!!! It is infact the South African Tank Corps WW2 shoulder title. Dealers and collectors now believe his descriptions as gospel, very frustrating. The correct name for the WW1 Trades Company was in fact the South African Miscellaneous Trades Company and if there was a title it would have been SAMTC. If you compare the "straight" WW2 SAAF titles and the SATC titles you will see they come from the same manufacturer. Another problem was the grouping of the badges, there should be definate splitting of the various arms of service Army, Navy and Air Force and even subsections in those sections ie infantry, armour, artillery etc.

Another is the addition of "variations" of badges that were in fact never issued and were made in a workshop possibly "up-north" , one being the Springbuck head added to the SAAC badge, this is clearly trench art. Yes, they have a place as they were possibly worn but it should be described as such. Another previously discussed badge is the Pretoria Highlanders Bi-metal badge, no one has ever seen one...his example appears to be a combination of a brass and white metal version (trench art) or it was a one off to be appraised with a mind to have if produced at some later stage? With his amazing collection there should have been a write-up on the various different issues such as the WW2 SA lead issues and sand cast badges found in resonably large numbers to prevent confusion (hence my interest in these largely overlooked badge issues). Curzons early editions are a wealth of info but cover only a few badges. If only Owen had followed Curzons example we would have a really interesting referance work.

But as Iain says it might not be perfect but it is all we have to go one really apart from Andrews nice colour book on mainly later SADF issues and Curzons 2 editions from the 1950's/1960's.

Rant over, apologies to Ron for hi-jacking thread

Regards
Brian

[iaindh]

Hi Brian,

there also seems to have been several authors.
There is currently one on BoB covering the period 1932 - 50 by C Birkey called "the saga of the Transvaal Scottish."
There is also "Tartan on the veldt," not sure of the author, but I would like the one on the early period.

regards, Iain

Originally Posted by Brian Conyngham

Iain

The history of the TS appears to have been published in 3 volumes, I have the WW2 volume. Had a chance to purchase the 3rd Volume covering the Border War period but the guy wanted a crazy price!

I will keep a look out for you but these books are seldom seen down here in Durban.

Regards
Brian

[Brian Conyngham]

Ron

Also a new one for me, always a good looking badge for me. Ron I have my suspitions that those clasps have been added on later privately. They could be inverted brass file paper clips? Can you remove the cloth and see if these have been soldered on?

Apologies for picture, taken with mobile.

Brian

[Brian Conyngham]

Iain

Yes, they are different authors but cover the different periods of their history from what I can work out. I have the SAGA OF THE TS interests me as this covers WW2.

Brian

[iaindh]

Hi Brian,

yes WWII was also an interesting period but I'm particularly interested in the original formation, the links to the Duke of Atholl, the GSWA campaign and of course, they then formed a big part of 4th SAI in the SA Brigade in France.

regards, Iain

Originally Posted by Brian Conyngham

Iain

Yes, they are different authors but cover the different periods of their history from what I can work out. I have the SAGA OF THE TS interests me as this covers WW2.

Brian

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Brian,
I don't use Owen's book at all, it only sees the light of day when Iain sends me a pm or email and quotes a number from it, many things are incorrectly described, so other than a collection (which no longer exists) bound up into a single volume of photographs, it is really not a proper book, I have never held it in high regard, for the Great War, I had always used Cox.
Kind regards Frank

Originally Posted by Brian Conyngham

Frank

Yes, I have to agree with you about Owens. It would appear Owen just publish his own amazing collection and not the difinitive issues of all SA Badges. Some of his deductions are crazy as well, one that springs to mind is the SATC shoulder title...he has it as the South African Trades Company WW1!!! It is infact the South African Tank Corps WW2 shoulder title. Dealers and collectors now believe his descriptions as gospel, very frustrating. The correct name for the WW1 Trades Company was in fact the South African Miscellaneous Trades Company and if there was a title it would have been SAMTC. If you compare the "straight" WW2 SAAF titles and the SATC titles you will see they come from the same manufacturer. Another problem was the grouping of the badges, there should be definate splitting of the various arms of service Army, Navy and Air Force and even subsections in those sections ie infantry, armour, artillery etc.

Another is the addition of "variations" of badges that were in fact never issued and were made in a workshop possibly "up-north" , one being the Springbuck head added to the SAAC badge, this is clearly trench art. Yes, they have a place as they were possibly worn but it should be described as such. Another previously discussed badge is the Pretoria Highlanders Bi-metal badge, no one has ever seen one...his example appears to be a combination of a brass and white metal version (trench art) or it was a one off to be appraised with a mind to have if produced at some later stage? With his amazing collection there should have been a write-up on the various different issues such as the WW2 SA lead issues and sand cast badges found in resonably large numbers to prevent confusion (hence my interest in these largely overlooked badge issues). Curzons early editions are a wealth of info but cover only a few badges. If only Owen had followed Curzons example we would have a really interesting referance work.

But as Iain says it might not be perfect but it is all we have to go one really apart from Andrews nice colour book on mainly later SADF issues and Curzons 2 editions from the 1950's/1960's.

Rant over, apologies to Ron for hi-jacking thread

Regards
Brian

[rmarsden]

Brian, the tangs are not paper clips. They are a single strip of brass bent double and brazed to the badge. The gilt finish covers the braze. Photos to follow when my son returns my camera.
Ron.

[iaindh]

Just a stab in the dark here but this badge is perhaps worn on the Pipers feather bonnet with it having blades? That would explain limited amounts? The Scottish regiments in Britain have badges with extended lugs but I've never seen a TS badge with extended lugs.

Just a thought, Iain

Originally Posted by Brian Conyngham

Ron

Also a new one for me, always a good looking badge for me. Ron I have my suspitions that those clasps have been added on later privately. They could be inverted brass file paper clips? Can you remove the cloth and see if these have been soldered on?

Apologies for picture, taken with mobile.

Brian