Scots Guards Sergeant Piper and Pipe Major Badges

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I realise that JSP768 lumps in the Scots Guards Piper and Sergeant Piper badge as one and the same. However, I think it fair to say that there are three different badges worn by pipers in the Scots Guards.

1. Piper
2. Sergeant Piper
3. Pipe Major

While the Piper badge had NSN and pattern No. the other two are, as far as I know, officially authorised but purchased at regimental expense.

My question is this: were the Sergeant Piper and Pipe Major cap badges made many years ago (possibly even Victorian era) and are they simply passed on from Sergeant Piper to Sergeant Piper and Pipe Major to Pipe Major thereby negating the need for new items to be manufactured?

I have asked this question at quite high levels within the Scots Guards and other organisations but to date have not received reply. I have also read many official documents on the Scots Guards but again no joy.

Regards,

Chris

[hagwalther]

Any Scots Guards or Piper experts out there?

Regards,

Chris

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

My question is this: were the Sergeant Piper and Pipe Major cap badges made many years ago (possibly even Victorian era)

All I have for you is that the two badges, particularly the Senior NCO silver, shown in Hodges certainly don't look that old.

Rgds, Thomas

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by fougasse1940

All I have for you is that the two badges, particularly the Senior NCO silver, shown in Hodges certainly don't look that old.

Rgds, Thomas

Hi Thomas,

It's the one shown as image 43 (Pipe Major) and just shown in image 46 (Pipe Sergeant) that are stumping me re: dates of manufacture.

The 'Senior NCO' as far as I know is the Piper badge (has NSN and pattern No.) and the A/A piece (image 45) supposedly worn by the Piper - no idea! Looking at it under magnification in image 40 I see no gold center area - Hodges mistake?

Regards,

Chris

[hagwalther]

Taking this one step further - how many Sergeant Piper and Pipe Majors would there be at one time in the Scots Guards? I'm guessing just one Pipe Major but no idea on the number of Sergeant Pipers - can anyone help?

Am I also right in thinking that the Sergeant Piper and Pipe Major badges are only worn on ceremonial occasions?

Regards,

Chris

[Alex Rice]

Hi Chris
Not 100% sure what you are asking but the PMs badge in the piper's badges gallery which is in my collection I was told is an early one, with an officer's or W/Os star hand soldered into the garter. Exact dating not sure but I think WWI or earlier. I think during the wars when there were many battalion's raised, there were probably extra badges made up but I don't know if they would have been handed down.
Cheers,
Alex

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Taking this one step further - how many Sergeant Piper and Pipe Majors would there be at one time in the Scots Guards? I'm guessing just one Pipe Major but no idea on the number of Sergeant Pipers - can anyone help?

Am I also right in thinking that the Sergeant Piper and Pipe Major badges are only worn on ceremonial occasions?

Regards,

Chris

There will be more than one Chris,Guardsmen fill a lot of posts outside of the Battalion.
The badge will be worn full time,the PM will wear the Balmoral bonnet the majority of time rather than beret or cap. Theres images of the Balmoral being worn in the Falklands war,at the top of Mt Tumbledown.

[hagwalther]

Thnaks Mike, Alex.

What I am trying to work out is if any Sergeant Piper or Pipe Major badges have been made for the Scots Guards since 1993. My feeling is not.

The Irish Guards only have one Pipe Major badge and that is handed on from Pipe Major to Pipe Major on change of appointment. The last one was presented to the regiment in 2004.

I am trying to work out if there has been any need for the Scots Guards to aquire Sergeant Piper or Pipe Major badges in recent times or if the stocks that they held since before 1993 are still sufficient.

Regards,

Chris

[hagwalther]

These are two badges which I believe to be 'suspect' and are probably from my 'favourite' dealer ex Hong Kong. They are of good quality - no problem there - but they now seem to be everywhere and are quite expensive to buy. I think they hit the market five years ago.

I appreciate that the Scots Guards could have commissioned a modern batch and that these are left over stock being sold on from such a batch. I know that at least one of the existing badge manufacturers produce batches in a minimum of 50 pieces cos I asked them. Does anyone know if the Scots Guards undertook such modern day purchases?

Of course, if the Scots Guards are still using such badges from stocks acquired many years ago before the items shown below were made then those shown just have to be fakes as they are being sold as the real deal.

I have no issue with the modern all silver Piper badge NSN 8455-99-975-6593.

Regards,

Chris

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

These are two badges which I believe to be 'suspect' and are probably from my 'favourite' dealer ex Hong Kong. They are of good quality - no problem there - but they now seem to be everywhere and are quite expensive to buy. I think they hit the market five years ago.

I appreciate that the Scots Guards could have commissioned a modern batch and that these are left over stock being sold on from such a batch. I know that at least one of the existing badge manufacturers produce batches in a minimum of 50 pieces cos I asked them. Does anyone know if the Scots Guards undertook such modern day purchases?

Of course, if the Scots Guards are still using such badges from stocks acquired many years ago before the items shown below were made then those shown just have to be fakes as they are being sold as the real deal.

I have no issue with the modern all silver Piper badge NSN 8455-99-975-6593.

Regards,

Chris

Is the one on the right off centre ?
Andy

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Is the one on the right off centre ?
Andy

Hi Andy,

Possibly just a little but the image is a bit curved as I was taking a very close view of both badges.

Note that the left and right star points line up between the 'S' and 'C' of 'SCOTS' and 'D' and 'S' of 'GUARDS' which follows the style of the NSN allocated all silver Piper badge.

They are both very well made badges although the split pin on the Pipe Major is not anything that I have seen on UK badges.

Regards,

Chris

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks Chris, i must admit they do look very good.
Andy

[Alex Rice]

Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman

Is the one on the right off centre ?
Andy

Definitely looks off-centre to me.

Here is a pic of a couple I have which have been in my collection for around 20 years. Unfortunately I don't have images of the backs.
As for making badges, here's my opinion. I expect the regiments would order a number of badges at a time to make the order viable so a lot must sit in stores for a long time. The PM appointment is usually for about 4 years so there wouldn't be a big turnover. I know some PMs for other regiments kept their badges so new ones were issued. Also, if the PM happened to be a successful/famous soloist, it is not uncommon for them to be presented with a solid silver badge for them to keep, which would be off the books. This could come from the Regiment or the Colonel-in-Chief.
Cheers,
Alex

[hagwalther]

Thanks Alex.

Yes, regiments do purchase many of their badges. These are the ones that are authorised but left to regiment to acquire.

The question really is when did the Scots Guards last purchase Sergeant Piper and Pipe Major badges - recently or (e.g.) back in Queen Victoria's time? If the former, and they are the same, then the badges are OK but if the latter applies then they are duds.

At the moment I really don't know how to find this out. I have wriiten to various establishments including the Scots Guards but no replay so far. Must admit, I have been pondering these badges for some years now.

Regards,

Chris

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

Definitely looks off-centre to me.

Here is a pic of a couple I have which have been in my collection for around 20 years. Unfortunately I don't have images of the backs.
As for making badges, here's my opinion. I expect the regiments would order a number of badges at a time to make the order viable so a lot must sit in stores for a long time. The PM appointment is usually for about 4 years so there wouldn't be a big turnover. I know some PMs for other regiments kept their badges so new ones were issued. Also, if the PM happened to be a successful/famous soloist, it is not uncommon for them to be presented with a solid silver badge for them to keep, which would be off the books. This could come from the Regiment or the Colonel-in-Chief.
Cheers,
Alex

Two beauties Alex.
Andy