Scarcest militia period badge?

[Voltigeur]

Bill, one question for you. As you write that the inter-war period saw many badges made with a slider but when a change of name happened they were made with lugs. The suggestion is that these (with slider) were made in the UK and the subsequent ones in Canada. I'm OK with that, it's logical. Now, knowing that Scully was a well established Canadian company, why place an order with Gaunt knowing that the order would probably take a few months to be filled. Maybe because a difference in the prices of the badges.....did Gaunt have a badge-producing plant in Canada ???
Just asking
Jo

[chaudiere1944]

Interesting concept about the collars being boxed in lefts and rights...it makes complete sense to me. I have a number of 'orphaned' collars that are awaiting their long lost mate...unfortunately in my quests I have yet to reunite them.

Bill, With the Algonquin's establishment in 1928 (slider) and redesignation in 1931 (lug) it would make sense that the Slider version is more scarce, rare and costly...is this the case?

In the case of the Beauce and according to our general theory on Sliders and Lugs: The Beauce was established in 1921 (slider) and redesignated in 1932 (lug)... and again in 1936 as the Chaudiere. I wonder if the Lugged version in this instance is the more scarce, rare and costly as it would have only had approximately 4 years of production versus 11 for the Slider. Thoughts?

Best,
Mike

[Bill A]

Hi Jo, Mike, et al,
As far as I know Gaunt had a Canadian operation, but I am not sure if it was only a sales office for badges made in the UK, or if it had manufacturing as well as sales. I am not sure if "time to fill an order" was a major consideration; cost was likely more important. Lowest bidder would likely fill the order.
Mike, In my opinion the slider badges from the 20-50 period are miuch scarcer than the lugged badges. To further add to the discussion, in the post WW1 period, there was a major disenchantment with war, and associated with that, the means to wage war. The militia was cut back to very limited establishments, and there was little public interest in the army. The need for badges was reduced, and there was not much demand. This remains the case until the late 30's. At that time interest revived with the growing threats on the international scene.
Mike, To address the question about the Algonquin Rifles and Algonquin Regiment, the Algonquin Rifles badge is scarce. I live in the regimental area and I have only picked up 2, plus I have seen a few in other collections / museums. My examples are two different finishes, one for the Rifles' period, and a de-blackened badge after the Regiment designation was made. Of interest, the early issue Algonquin Regiment badges were made of monel metal, and they are very difficult to find. Monel is a nickel alloy metal, very hard, and was used to make the early runs of Algonquin and SSM &S Regiment badges.
It would be interesting to see if the lugged Beauce is scarcer than the slider version, but that may be impossible to establish. They are a scarce badge to begin with, and getting enough to make a statistical study may be impossible.

[Voltigeur]

Thanks Bill, for this explanation.
Cheers
Jo

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by chaudiere1944

So that makes 2 with Sliders and 2 with Lugs...could the Sliders be of an earlier production and the Lugs a later version?

Theory: The Slider version being produced when The Beauce took it's name in 1921. The Lugged version being when they changed their name to Regiment de Dorchester et Beauce in 1932.

Reason: I have never seen or read about a Cap Badge to the Regiment de Dorchester et Beauce and think that perhaps when the Beauce was redesignated in 1932 any new Cap Badges issued would have been with the more common tradition (Canadian) manufacturing process using Lugs.

Mike

It is possible that badges with sliders were manufactured as pugarree badges and worn on the Wolseley helmet. geberal Orders stated that badges, when worn on the helmet, were not to pierce the pugarree.
Clive

[Voltigeur]

.....geberal...... too much sun Clive.
Jo

[Bill A]

Hello Clive,
How widespread was the use of the Wolseley helmet in the Canadian militia? Did all units wear that headdress? The sliders on the badges that I mention are not very long.
Further, there are no know examples of the Algonquin Rifles badges with lugs, all have sliders. Would the badges have been made for use on all headdress and switched around?

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

.....geberal...... too much sun Clive.
Jo

hehehehe. Sobetimes by finhers get bixed up.

[servicepub]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Hello Clive,
How widespread was the use of the Wolseley helmet in the Canadian militia? Did all units wear that headdress? The sliders on the badges that I mention are not very long.
Further, there are no know examples of the Algonquin Rifles badges with lugs, all have sliders. Would the badges have been made for use on all headdress and switched around?

The Wolseley was introduced in 1911 and became (and is still) the de facto full dress headdress for all Canadian units which do not have another pattern of headdress as their approved wear. This means that Guards, R22eR, Rifle regiments, RCA/RCHA and others are OK as they have other approved patterns but most infantry regiments and many Corps wear the Wolseley. Although few regiments wear full dress today this was not the case up until 1939 (and even today many units can still cobble together 20-100 man Guards of Honour.)
The Wolseleys, made of cork or pith do not have the survivability of many other styles of headgear so we see fewer of them today complete with badge and embellishments.
As there was no prohibition in General Orders to poking holes in forage caps, Field Service Caps or any other issue headwear then there would be no imperitive to producing badges with sliders - especially as lugged badges are less likely to get lost or be worn crooked while on-duty.
I can't speak to the question on the Algonquin Rifles but it is possible that the regiment chose sliders as a general standard and then ensured that sufficient slider mounts were available for all ranks to wear the badge on al orders of headdress.

[Bill A]

Hi Clive, Interesting information. I would like to see more in the records about the slider badges and the Wolseley helmets. I have seen several hundred images of the northeastern Ontario militias during the interwar period (Algonquin Rifles, Northern Pioneers, Sault Ste Marie Regt, and later the Sault Ste Marie & Sudbury Regt, plus the these units were brigaded with the Grey Regiment and the Simcoe Regt in the late 20's early 30's) and I don't remember seeing any of them in full dress with Wolseley helmets. There are images of them at summer camps with pith helmets, but they did not have pugarees on them, or any badges for that matter.
I am still inclined to think that the slider badges were a manufacturing issue and not a dress issue. I believe that there are examples of cavalry regiment badges from the same period with sliders as well.

[servicepub]

Bill, Is there any corelation between makers and badges with/without sliders?

[Bill A]

I am not sure that one can be established. The badges I have with sliders are not maker marked.
Here is an image of the Grey Regiment slider badge. It is awfully short to be a pagree fastener, but?

[Seathanaich]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Question, why do some regiment's one side of the collars appear much more on the market than the other side? Eg the Beauce appear facing left as viewed, but it is difficult to find a right. And the same for the RHLI collars, rights being very common, but lefts being very hard to find? When the badges were produced, were they put in boxes of lefts and rights? Or were they paired? Seems that they were boxed as lefts and rights separately, and this may explain the availability.

As a member of the Army Reserve since 1989, I have never seen new collar badges packaged or stored individually. They come from the manufacturer in pairs. Old (1940s and earlier) Scully issued collar and cap badges are still seen in their original issued state, i.e. on those pieces of white paper with "Scully Ltd Montreal" printed on them. I've only ever seen the collar badge versions, in those cases, in pairs. It's possible that the RQs of regiments with left/right collars might keep the used ones in "Left" and "Right" bins, but I can't imagine that newly issued collars were ever that way.

I have a total of five "left" collars for the 1st Newfoundland / Royal Newfoundland Regiment, and yet have not been able to buy a single "right" collar for this unit, for either my WWI, 36-52, or 52-67 collections. In this case, the "left" collar was also the cap badge during WWI, as was often the case 1901-20 across Canada.

[Bill A]

Hi Seathanaich, Welcome to the Forum.
The practice of collars being packaged in pairs was not always the norm. At one time the badges were left and right boxed, but that goes back to some time ago. Other ranks badges were seldom carded, but simply boxed. Years ago (to date me) when I was in cadets and later the reserve, we had boxes of collars in lefts and rights, but I think they were older eg early queen's crown or king's crown. Supporting the practice of issuing collars in separate boxes is the RCOC Canadian Ordnance Catalogue. In it, collars are listed as left and right, with two different stock numbers. Since the original post, I remembered having seen boxes with these separate numbers over the years.

[wright241]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Question, why do some regiment's one side of the collars appear much more on the market than the other side? Eg the Beauce appear facing left as viewed, but it is difficult to find a right. And the same for the RHLI collars, rights being very common, but lefts being very hard to find?
When the badges were produced, were they put in boxes of lefts and rights? Or were they paired? Seems that they were boxed as lefts and rights separately, and this may explain the availability.

Anything to do with one being used as a cap badge... assuming it was "handed"..? (even though lugged ones may have been a tight fit).