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  #1  
Old 11-11-09, 06:53 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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Default 4th TF Bn East Lancashires

This one has just arrived in the post and is the first one I have seen that I would describe as original. The plinth is blank and has not been 'erased'. Nice brasing hole on the back and period toning that is right for a 1908-15 era badge.

I thought I would post the pictures for reference.
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File Type: jpg 4thlancs.JPG (86.6 KB, 175 views)

Last edited by Alan O; 12-11-09 at 07:10 AM.
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  #2  
Old 11-11-09, 08:08 PM
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Smile East Lancs TF

Looks a good one to me Alan, nice looking badge.
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  #3  
Old 11-11-09, 10:39 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Alan,
nice badge, what is "tonong"? - Andy
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  #4  
Old 12-11-09, 07:11 AM
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That would be 'toning' with bad typing skills..
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  #5  
Old 14-11-09, 02:31 PM
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Default East Lancs Cap Badge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
This one has just arrived in the post and is the first one I have seen that I would describe as original. The plinth is blank and has not been 'erased'. Nice brasing hole on the back and period toning that is right for a 1908-15 era badge.

I thought I would post the pictures for reference.
This is my uncles East Lancs Cap badge issued to him in October 1914.

Relaw.
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Nephew of Walter Holmes.
Last of the original Accrington
Pals to be killed in action
29-09-1918 1730 hrs.
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  #6  
Old 14-11-09, 02:40 PM
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Nice badge- which bn did he join?

Alan
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  #7  
Old 08-01-10, 09:02 PM
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P1020617.jpg Unable to find the Territorial Force thread where I originally
P1020619.jpg posted this badge, but think it compares well with
P1020622.jpg Alan's. Regards, Paul.

Last edited by wardog; 10-01-10 at 04:11 PM.
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  #8  
Old 09-01-10, 09:02 AM
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Yes indeed. This one I regard as an adulterated fake. Not only has the EGYPT title been removed but also the slider removed and replaced with lugs. Unfortunately the example shown in K&K seems to have had an erased scroll which dealers seem to optimistically describe as 'Regtly erased' - whether then own their own electric file set is another matter....
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  #9  
Old 28-12-19, 06:26 PM
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Default Finding the Accrington Pals - A Theory

Firstly I apologise for diverting this old thread from its original purpose but it seems a ‘sleeper’ was posted here which at the time, myself included, the importance of may not have been fully apparent.

I’m sure everyone has heard of the 11th (Service) Battalion East Lancashire Regiment aka the Accrington Pals. They are arguably the most famous of the Pals after sadly being all but wiped out on the first day of the battle of the Somme.

Now since the year dot it’s been universally accepted that they wore just the ‘standard’ East Lancashire Regiment cap badge with no way to differentiate or distinguish from thousands of KC bimetal badges.

Well, I’m proposing an... ‘or did they?’ caveat to this long held and accepted belief.

Walter Holmes (aka Semloh Retlaw) has been a historian and researcher of the Accrington Pals for over 50 years. His uncle, also called Walter Holmes, was an original Accrington Pal joining up as Pte. 15507 in September 1914. By November 1914 the Accrington’s had received their Kitchener blue uniforms and cap badges. In January 1915 Walter gave the badge he was originally issued to his father as a gift. This badge (post #5) has then passed down the family to his nephew giving it absolutely cast iron provenance. Clearly parade and discipline standards were high as the badge has seen a lot of ‘bull’ in that short time, the Sphinx’s ribs are almost polished away, the laurel leaves and crown are well rounded and worn.


Pte. 15507 Walter Holmes’ cap badge
(Picture courtesy of Walter Holmes)

Now having studied Walter’s badge it has some fairly distinctive features which stood out to my eyes and after some investigation to find another badge from the same die it quickly became apparent this type of badge was far from ‘standard’.



Features of note:
* Small diagonal lozenge shaped central jewel and the misaligned large blobby jewel far right
* Clear gap between Sphinx’s backside and wreath (not a hugely common trait)
* Top of the letters ‘C’, ‘I’ and ‘R’ in LANCASHIRE merge into the scroll’s border
* Die flaw in laurel above ‘C’ below rose
* Offset rose overlay
* Shape of internal scroll curls - much squarer on right side
* Top of letter ‘T’ of EGYPT merging into tablet border. Shape of ‘G’
* Tassely tail with a broad tip but thin shaft connecting it to the body

The other thing which hinted itself to me was the badge did not appear to have a slider, although at this stage I assumed it may be broken.

Searching for other badges from the same die I found the below badge. This badge is an earlier strike as some of the flaws mentioned above are not so apparent.



And the back which caused some excitement...



So, clearly originally looped and presence of a Gaunt plaque. Both features certainly not so ‘standard’.

Intrigued I searched the forum and found another https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...unt+Lancashire

Now just to set out I do not believe believe these are old stock Edwardian era badges because: 1. the quality simply isn’t good enough especially the reverse detail/crispness and 2. it wasn’t common practice to put makers plates on WO ordered badges.

It was however a known practice however to attach Gaunt plates to non-WO orders including those by TF units. There is also strong circumstantial evidence this practice was still going on at the start of WW1 e.g. the all GM Notts & Derby Regt with loops and Gaunt tablets that have been attributed to men in the 1/8th and 2/8th Bns, the latter formed in 1914.

At this point I tried to reach out to those with more information on the Accringtons. To my delight and eternal gratitude I was put in touch with our own Walter (Semloh Retlaw) who was able to furnish me with much invaluable historical information about the Accy’s and further details of his uncle’s badge.

The next paragraph is wholly credit to Walter and his extensive knowledge obtained from research of original documents, contemporary local newspaper articles and speaking to those who were there and their family members.

The battalion’s strength peaked at about 1,150 in September 1914. By the time they reached Penkridge camp around 250 had been discharged for various reasons. Most interestingly of all the battalion’s CO Lt Col. Rickman wrote a letter to the mayor of Accrington, Capt. John Harwood, asking for cap badges and wire cutters amongst other things. Originally the mayor had promised the local tailors work outfitting the Pals but reneged on his promise to the townspeople following a far cheaper quote from a big supplier. The blue Melton uniform they originally wore was supplied around the same time as the cap badges as photographs from November 1914 shows them wearing both. This uniform was very unpopular with the Pals who felt it made them look like bus conductors. We also know that if a man lost his cap badge he was charged 2 and 6 for a replacement.

Of Pte. Holmes’ badge itself Walter confirmed that the badge was exceptionally dirty on the back with 2 original loops. He also confirmed that he’d never polished it. Strangely the badge did not have a Gaunt plate on the back but it did have what appears to be a scar behind the crown which was the same colour as the tarnished braze around the loops. Walter also said he was under the impression that all the original Pals badges were on loops. Sadly trying to confirm or allay this by contacting the museum (who it was thought held several original Pals badges) proved fruitless as one of the mere two badges they owned was a very modern fake. Disappointingly but perhaps unsurprisingly adverts placed locally for original Pals badges did not yield any replies.

Unfortunately all the pictures of Accrington Pals I found are not high enough quality to properly examine the cap badge’s finer details. But this picture of original Pals member Pte. (later Sgt.) 18013 Philip Foster may be the Gaunt badge as the shape of laurel and voids looks broadly correct. Also there appears to be the gap between the Sphinx’s bum and the wreath, and finally the tail is quite fine but then tassely at the end. Whilst not by any means definitive I certainly cannot see anything that obviously rules it out. It’s worth a mention that Pte. Foster and Pte. Holmes were mates who lived around the corner, joined up within a few months of each other and were also sadly the last two original members to be killed in the war in 1918.


Picture credit Andrew Jackson (http://www.pals.org.uk/list_fh.htm)

A short while later I was very fortunate to locate and acquire a badge very similar to Walter’s including the heavy discolouration to the back and perhaps rather nicely it also has seen a significant amount of ‘bull’. All of the die flaws on Pte. Holmes’ badge are present on this example.




Now to qualify the above, I’m not by any stretch saying that I believe all looped Gaunt made East Lancs are Accrington Pals badges. But I think it’s very possible, if not likely, that a batch of them were issued to at least some of the original Pals in 1914.

The above is just a theory, and whilst not proof, I feel the case albeit circumstantial is a compelling one. The physical evidence of the Gaunt made badge’s unusual qualities coupled with its impeccable provenance and also fitting Walter’s recollection of original Pals badges having loops does dovetail with the historical information of the letter from the CO to the mayor of Accrington and we know it was relatively common place for benefactors or Pals battalions themselves to finance uniform and kit. So, I think it’s entirely plausible that these badges were either a private order via an outfitters or direct to Gaunt to equip the Pals or existing TF stock being bought up and utilised by them.

Cheers,

Luke

Last edited by Luke H; 29-12-19 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Many thanks to Walter Holmes and Mike for their assistance.
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  #10  
Old 29-12-19, 11:55 AM
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Brilliant, excellent forensic analysis ! The only way to discern different dies is to get a magnifying glass and look at every detail of the badge. It is useful to determine how many dies were used for a specific badge – though few are maker marked.


As for maker’ plaques, I am certain that this indicates a ‘private [bulk] purchase’ by a specific battalion (usually a local ‘sponsor’) – rather than from the public purse. In this case you do have the maker – the next step is to find any documentary evidence as to date, quantity etc – either from the Gaunt archives (B’ham, BMAG and London NAM) or from wherever the E Lancs archives.
There are other examples of such private productions by quite a few makers; newly raised ‘Pals’ or piper’s badges (eg Lpl Scottish)
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  #11  
Old 29-12-19, 12:08 PM
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Luke, many thanks, very informative. Regards Mark
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  #12  
Old 29-12-19, 01:31 PM
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Great piece of research.

I suspect that the one-piece all brass lugged Notts & Derby badges had similiar origins.

Alan
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  #13  
Old 29-12-19, 03:11 PM
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Outstanding thread and very interesting.
Andy
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  #14  
Old 29-12-19, 04:49 PM
Restrikes-ok Restrikes-ok is offline
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Will wade through later. On a 'very slight change' in the subject it is 162 years to the day the 59th Nottinghamshire Regiment captured the Canton bell. Later to become the East Lancashire Regiment.
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  #15  
Old 29-12-19, 10:33 PM
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Luke, first class research and analysis.

An excellent post.

Regards.

Brian
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