RND cap badges

[whizzbang]

Originally Posted by dragonz18

Can you give the dimensions of the tablet & possibly lettering height, please ?

Cheers !
Steve

Hi Steve,

Plaque width is 9.63 mm, height is 4.28 mm. Lettering height is about 1.4 mm (got a set of digital calipers for xmas!)

Here's a thought - if this was a fake there should be a lot more around - not much margin in turning out a repro that is as rare as the original!??

Cheers, Ian.

[davec2]

Hi Folks,

Ian, can I come into this one and at the same time, stay sat on the fence, I haven't the knowledge to pass any comments as to the validity of the badge but I do have a fair inkling into human nature and a couple of points stick in my craw, so to speak.

Firstly, why an anonymous e-mail, if the sender was sincere, why not give his identity ??

Has the seller made any enemies in the past, one perhaps, who has been waiting for the opportunity to have a go at this seller regardless of the quality of the badge ??

Lastly and a point I feel is quite important, why didn't you contact the seller with your concerns when you first received this mysterious e-mail ? I would have !!

I have had a badge highlighted on the forum by another member, who I believe, thought he was being clever, I had described it as a copy and he still went ahead and asked for members opinions on the open forum.

On this occasion, I was quite incensed with the members mischievousness and it caused me personal distress ( to a point, obviously ), because in that case the post was completely unnecessary.

I appreciate your feelings about this, I don't know how much you paid but I should imagine that it was a substantial amount, surely more of a reason to speak to the seller first, just my opinion and I would hope that no-one jumps down my throat for taking this stance.

All the best.

Dave.

[jeanpit-frenchy]

perhaps the pictures of my HOOD (with guaunt plaque)can help

not from my grand father collection, buy in a belgium fair

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by jeanpit-frenchy

perhaps the pictures of my HOOD (with guaunt plaque)can help

not from my grand father collection, buy in a belgium fair

JP,

Yours is a collar badge I think, just to confirm what size is it?

Cheers,

Luke

[jeanpit-frenchy]

Originally Posted by Luke Halls

JP,

Yours is a collar badge I think, just to confirm what size is it?

Cheers,

Luke

it is 3,2 cm ....

a collar ! , i hope a "little" patern like n°1688 (page 211) in cox

but i m agree with you, perhaps a collar

regards

[whizzbang]

Originally Posted by davec2

I appreciate your feelings about this, I don't know how much you paid but I should imagine that it was a substantial amount, surely more of a reason to speak to the seller first, just my opinion and I would hope that no-one jumps down my throat for taking this stance.

All the best.

Dave.

Hi Dave,
Thanks for you comments. I guess the main reason I didn't speak to the seller is that I lean towards feeling that the badge is OK and that the mysterious e-mailer was being mischevious - nothing concrete to go to the seller about. I've now gone to the forum for a "second opinion" (ok, so I ended up getting multiple and varied second opinions, I should have expected nothing less! ). All in all, I'm happy with the badge.

Out of 4 RND badges I have (Drake, Hood, Nelson, Howe) only the Drake passes all the "classic" criteria for originality (my Nelson and Howe are bang on but lack Gaunt plates but I am one who believes there were other makers). C'est la vie.

Cheers, Ian.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by whizzbang

Here's a thought - if this was a fake there should be a lot more around - not much margin in turning out a repro that is as rare as the original!??

Cheers, Ian.

Ian,

It actually makes perfect sense, if you flood the market with such a fake it would become obvious very soon that they are indeed fakes and prices would tumble. Whereas if you sell them quitely one every month or so they'll command a premium price. The guys making and faking these things aren't silly.

We've known for sometime now (courtesy of STM) that Gaunt plaques ARE being faked and can be bought by the bag or even affixed to a badge of your choice for a few extra pennys.

What it boils down to is dies and J.R. Gaunt and Gaunt plaques.

How many dies would Gaunt have had for these rare RND, Pals etc badges? In truth I doubt more than one as none show signs of damage and these units had relatively low numbers.

Three cases I've seen so far:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1)

A friend of mine and very experienced collector, ex-forum member Keith Blakeman recently bought a good looking (age, patina, stamp, N-S lug, correctly voided pennant - wise) NELSON RND with a Gaunt plaque, when it arrived he realised that the 'N' was straight whereas genuine Gaunt NELSON RNDs had a slanted 'N' as per Peter Taylor's:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ghlight=nelson

Here are just a couple of the most obvious differences I've highlighted

>(1) Clear differences in the 'N'
>(2) Obvious difference in the mermaid

So the question is why is there a Gaunt plate on a badge from a different die?

Thanks to Keith and Peter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
2)

Your badge, which I will not comment on the authenticity of, but will say this.

Peter's and Paddy's Hood badges come from the same (correct) Gaunt die.
(kind thanks to Paddy for letting me use his picture)

Whereas the badge you show is clearly from a different die but has a Gaunt plate.

Differences:
>(1) The anchor point
>(2) The choughs foreleg
>(3) The stance/shape of the chougs body
and most obvious of all
>(4) The lettering


So another RND badge Gaunt had two dies for??? Make of that what you will.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
3)

Now compare this Lonsdale Rifles from Geoff Newmans site:

http://www.gnmilitaria.co.uk/shop/vi...h=10059&phqu=2

(I would point out that Geoff is a top bloke and 99.9% of is stuff is 100%)

to alan g's genuine one and the bosleys one on buywyze (these latter two are from the same die but the bosleys one has a void between the wings and neck) http://buywyze.com/shop/viewphoto.ph...1014529&phqu=1

Differences:
>(1) shape and positioning of the raised arm
>(2) angle of deflection of the tail
>(3) the eye brow

So again a different die yet both have Gaunt plates???

-------------------------------------------------------------------------



IMO its very interesting that units who required relatively few numbers badges had two dies (at least) commisioned by and bearing J.R. Gaunts plaques. While I freely accept other manufactueres made RND badges I find it very difficult to believe Gaunt owned multiple dies for the same badge and had such varying styles of plaques for such a confined time period. Make of that what you will.

Luke

[Luke H]

... and finally

[dragonz18]

Luke,
good detective work going on here !
Some points...........
Have had a look at what I would call 'standard' Gaunt tablets, with the 'eye & tape-measure' method (must get some calipers) & I would say they should be more like 8mm x 3.5mm with 1mm high letters !
IMO Keith's(?) NELSON appears to be a modified copy with the old 'curved down' pennant 'cipped-out' to look more like an origional?? The side Griffin's heads are a little small(only my opinion again), the Mermaid's arms are up above her head, probably to help lift up those over-large breasts? The straight 'N' is still a problem ,for me , but at least it has the correct 9 'lames'(planks) on the hull. Some copies only have 8 !! The sail 'creases' are very crudely done also.The tablet is on the wrong area (?)& looks to have one of these larger 'copy' types again .
Cheers !
Steve

[dragonz18]

Comparison pics of different number of 'lames'(planks) 8 on the 'copy' ( a different version, but often seen on Ebay). This one at least has the 'sloped' N. But terrible & odd sail 'definition'.The one on the left is an origional Gaunt,with tablet ,with poor picture angle here.Appologies
Cheers again !
Steve

[dragonz18]

Re the origional post, am still in 2 minds on the actual badge itself ,but am thinking that the tablet has been put on a 'possibly' older item to give it a more obvious....shall we say.... sale-ability/authentification ?? IMO ,at this point in time.

Ditto !

[dragonz18]

Another point, on badge production here. Luke is right in saying that a badge from any certain manufacturer will always look the same, in that the 'production' dies are made from a 'master' Hub-Die. Only these are used to make the badges & can be easily replaced,from the 'Master', when worn-out or broken.
So there will only ever be 1 version that is a Gaunt type but other manufacturers will have their own versions, as interpreted by their own die engravers ,from the origional pattern drawings.
Not just my opinion, this information is from published documentation, here. And from discussions with 'real-life' badge makers also.

Cheers,etc!
Steve

[whizzbang]

Steve & Luke,

You guys make good points and it would be nicer to have a badge with all the expected/accepted features!

It's a shame that there isn't better contemporary documentation about badge production methods, production runs, die life, metals used, etc. On the other hand, if there was we would have a lot less to talk about!

Cheers, Ian.

[Alan O]

I used to own this badge. It was a fake with a fake tablet. It was close enough to the original to fool anyone without very close inspection. As it was, I sold it as a copy but it still went for far more than I paid for it.

Alan

[Chrisr]

Dragon,

For comparison attached is my Nelson without a Gaunt plate, purchased from an old collector in 1961 and taken off a very old board. I suspect he collected it in the 1930's but certainly no later than the late 1940's. Side by side they are pretty much the same.

Cheers
Chris