my anodised badge collection

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

The only subdued factory made A/A cap badges that I know off that were authorised at regimental level, by the commanding officer, and purchased via regimental funds (as opposed to the public purse) are those of the Devon & Dorset and the King's Regt.

If purchased from Regimental Funds, that would make them PRI items (free issue perhaps) and not 'authorised' as in MoD purchased!

The Parachute Regiment PRI sells Blackened Badges purchased with Regimental Funds.

DZ/TRF's are purchased in the same manor - approved but not purchased from MoD funds.

Another example of this are the badges worn by Army Commandos who wear black badges when within the brigade, were anodised but are now metal.
[RE, RA, (RCT, RAOC & ACC - now RLC) REME]

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

If purchased from Regimental Funds, that would make them PRI items (free issue perhaps) and not 'authorised' as in MoD purchased!

Mike,

I thought I made that quite clear with my previous post - obviously not.

Chris

[GriffMJ]

Chris

This Black AA Motto is made post 1973.... and made by Gaunt.... I have put it with its production AA. I have also shown the Firmin Bz and its production AA (also my unmarked Bronze of the same).

* William shows the odd one out because his is the early 1970s production (as shown in post #20 against its production AA).... but William has stated that its not simply an AA thats been painted black. So we await better pictures.

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Mike,

I thought I made that quite clear with my previous post - obviously not.

Chris

No, you miss my point - The CO CANNOT authorise a dress item or change its colour, buy them yes, but authority is only vested in the Army Dress Committee, where many such changes are submitted 'after the fact'

I added other examples which were my main post.

[Mike B]

I have belatedly found this thread - what an excellent body of work! An Extremely useful and well presented project. Please keep this most informative database updated.
Mike

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

No, you miss my point - The CO CANNOT authorise a dress item or change its colour, buy them yes, but authority is only vested in the Army Dress Committee, where many such changes are submitted 'after the fact'

I added other examples which were my main post.

Hi MIke,

Sorry but you are wrong.

I personally wore an unofficial patch on my flying suit while an Air Despatcher.

In no way did this badge go through the Army Dress Committee but was authorised by the Commanding Officer of the unit in which I was attached to.

Two examples of the badge in question is given in the book: Badges of The Empire's Waggoner's on page 99 under fig. 2358 and bottom right corner.

The examples where I gave of commanding officers initiating a subdued A/A cap badge are accurate and come from Lt. Col Robin Hodges paper: The Historical Record of The King’s Regiment 1958-2006.

As such, any factory made subdued A/A cap badge is one of two things:

1) An item organised at regimental/corps level for local use and not officially authorised by the MoD. Such items would be paid for from local funds and not the public purse. i.e they were not provided by the MoD and there is no evidence that any of them were specifically authorised by the Army Dress Committee although the blanket 'painted up' decision, No. D. 2747, formalised at the 217th Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, held on the 5th September 1973, goes some way to legitimizing such items. If anyone has ADC decisions regarding specifically authorised subdued A/A cap badges, at an individual unit level, then I would really like to hear about it.

2) Dealer 'knock offs'. The majority of subdued A/A cap badges out there and purchased by the unwary and often made from the same die as the non-subdued item.

If you want to collect authentic subdued A/A cap badges then you have a problem as only a 'painted up' version is the real deal. However, it may have been 'painted up' just last week. This is the reason why I never personally touch them as there is not way of knowing what is, and what is not, the genuine item.

To conclude: many of these unofficial factory items were worn by members of the armed forces whilst carrying out their duties and I have stated this both in print and on this forum. But genuine issue pieces they most certainly were not.

Regards

Chris

[Mike_2817]

In your opening statement, we will have to agree to disagree.

You may well have worn (in your own words) an unofficial patch, and it may well have been worn with the CO's 'permission' but not 'approved' by the ADC. A CO has no authority to approve such a badge, only to allow it to be worn un-officially. And that is a big difference to approving it.

I am not a purist, and if an item was worn by a unit it matters not to me if it was produced to MoD contract or by special order by the unit.

The only badges I object to are those produced to deceive, and even some of them end up being worn anyway.

I only collect to the RAOC & RLC, and I have 3 examples of unit painted badges (one worn by myself) one being finished in 'Gun Black' and very hard, I have never seen a subdued badge manufactured for the RAOC, and doubt if they ever were.

[GriffMJ]

Chris

see post #21 here------>
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=38134&page=2

This, quote "official version of their blackened Motto", was issued in NI.... again .....below is the Subdued Firmin Bronze (marked and unmarked) with its AA at the same production time. Gaunt made their version(s) as well..... then TKS.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

In your opening statement, we will have to agree to disagree.

You may well have worn (in your own words) an unofficial patch, and it may well have been worn with the CO's 'permission' but not 'approved' by the ADC. A CO has no authority to approve such a badge, only to allow it to be worn un-officially. And that is a big difference to approving it.

I am not a purist, and if an item was worn by a unit it matters not to me if it was produced to MoD contract or by special order by the unit.

The only badges I object to are those produced to deceive, and even some of them end up being worn anyway.

I only collect to the RAOC & RLC, and I have 3 examples of unit painted badges (one worn by myself) one being finished in 'Gun Black' and very hard, I have never seen a subdued badge manufactured for the RAOC, and doubt if they ever were.

Hi Mike,

Fair comment - we come from differing points of view and I think there is plenty of room for all of us.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike B

I have belatedly found this thread - what an excellent body of work! An Extremely useful and well presented project. Please keep this most informative database updated.
Mike

Hi Mike,

Yes; I quite agree.

The amount of work that Chris has put into his site is to be commended. I hope to send him a few more image updates soon and will keep away from further 'subdued' postings which, and I am to blame as much as any other member involved, are diverting his superb efforts.

You have created a good site Chris and I am sure will be of benefit for many collectors for years to come.

Regards

Chris

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Mike,

Yes; I quite agree.

The amount of work that Chris has put into his site is to be commended. I hope to send him a few more image updates soon and will keep away from further 'subdued' postings which, and I am to blame as much as any other member involved, are diverting his superb efforts.

You have created a good site Chris and I am sure will be of benefit for many collectors for years to come.

Regards

Chris

This bodes very well - you make a great team. The Forum is lucky to have such dedicated experts, who are willing to work together.

Interestingly (but off subject really) - regarding post 36 - I know a qualified ex Air Dispatcher whose CO came from the Parachute Regiment (1970's). He put new arrivals through P Company, this apparently led to both Para and Air Dispatch wings on smocks. I am sure this was not unique.

Mike

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike B

I know a qualified ex Air Dispatcher whose CO came from the Parachute Regiment (1970's). He put new arrivals through P Company, this apparently led to both Para and Air Dispatch wings on smocks. I am sure this was not unique.

Mike

Mike,

I joined the 395 AD in 1975 and by then approx. a quarter to a third of the troop wore para wings. While I served thought, the parachute course was never repeated.

Regards

Chris

[Mike B]

Of passing interest re unofficial badges - Tony Crank - Top Right, Air Dispatch - wearing Officers Bullion badge in his beret - subdued with boot polish. He was not an officer but I understand the practice was adopted for Northern Ireland. Chris M - you may have come across this too.

[Mike_2817]

Looks a little to square for an Officers Bullion Badge which were cut to shape! Could it be one of the earlier woven badges (Yellow on Blue)

Never saw a blacked Officers badge as you describe, either its an age thing (for me) or simply that I never came across it

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike B

Of passing interest re unofficial badges - Tony Crank - Top Right, Air Dispatch - wearing Officers Bullion badge in his beret - subdued with boot polish. He was not an officer but I understand the practice was adopted for Northern Ireland. Chris M - you may have come across this too.

Hi Mike,

New to me. Interesting to see, what appears to be, the Beaver fork lift though. If needed to, these could go pretty fast up a road or a runway.

Regards

Chris