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  #1  
Old 20-08-15, 09:26 AM
didithevan didithevan is offline
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Default What is an official or authorised badge!

So, a daily conundrum for you all. What consititutes an official badge?

1. One that is issued from depot stock through official chains to the unit QMs.
2. One that was sold by the unit PRI often locally commissioned, or bought from a supplier who's offering meets a requirement - authorised by the CO.
3. One that is manufactured on a commission basis by individuals in a unit who then wear it in uniform and authorised by the CO.

Difficult eh? I served in 17/21 and soldiers were advised to ditch the AA badges they wore at depot and buy WM from the PRI. Blackened bronze ones appeared in the late 80's for tactical wear (no part number) and officers, well we just bought our own and only wore the 'official' issued silver one in No1 Dress. So which are official as no one wore the issued one, and who is the actually authorised to authorise?
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Old 20-08-15, 10:25 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Stu,
You more of less answered your own question in my opinion. An official badge is one procured via the MOD/WD, purchased with public funds (Government money) and one which can be demanded for through the System, these normally have a sealed pattern. Anything else is locally authorised, a Commanding Officer can and they often have given permission for such insignia to be worn, but that does not necessarily make them "Official"! Should a unit seek higher authority and then have the item supplied at public expense then it becomes "Official". Outside of this process they remain unofficial even if locally authorised!

So in a nutshell it boils down to where the money comes from to source the insignia.

For example a few years back Welsh Guards Senior Ranks (Sgt to WO1 incl) started to wear "Silver" Leeks in the Forage Cap, permission was sought from higher authority however, although authorised the badges were to be purchased via the Regiment and not publicly funded. The Official badge therefore remains as the Anodised Aluminium pattern and Gilt for Staff, even though they no longer wear them!


Andy

Last edited by 2747andy; 20-08-15 at 11:13 AM.
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  #3  
Old 20-08-15, 11:21 AM
didithevan didithevan is offline
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Andy,

You are technically right in tems of officially purchased, but as a collector it can become somewhat difficult to decide what is correct. Are the purists who insist on the only the issued versions actually correct when as a collector are you then technically wrong for buying and selling a repro that you KNOW was actually the adopted pattern in a unit.

It makes the various debates on this and other forums something of a moot issue - how can an issued item that was rejected by the soldiers in a unit be a correct badge? That item surely then becomes the 'oddity', whilst the repro should be accepted as the definitive item for collecting.

Its a bit like the debate on Army boots - we all knew what the issued ones were crap and we rejected them for better after market boots. Does mean in the future that my actual worn uniform would be rejected by someone reconstructung uniforms of the 80/90's because I wore Lundhags and not the cardboard crap?

There is also the issue of qty on the market being touted as 'genuine'. If every so called 'genuine' WM, Br or BM sold at market was original, given the amount already in private collections, the amount 'lost' and already disposed of, the British Army would have at least quadrupled in size at any point in its history!

It is the reason I have shied away from WM etc. I have to accept that without any form of provenence all badges are technically suspect, or I simplly collect the cheaper honest repro pattern because I cannot actually prove others are not due to ingenious weathering, fading, rubbing etc.

I will be collecting HP centres soon, I know that 99% of those are going to be fakes as the odds of that number of genuine surviving is minimal. Most are in fact restrikes from the 20/30's! I just wish that the general market would stop touting them as originals and try to charge inflated rates. Actually, I would like to find the repro manufacturer and buy from trade as I actually want a set to display rather than try to find the real thing - I leave that to those with absolute detail knowledge and fat wallets...
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  #4  
Old 20-08-15, 11:23 AM
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Robthereiver Robthereiver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didithevan View Post
So, a daily conundrum for you all. What consititutes an official badge?

1. One that is issued from depot stock through official chains to the unit QMs.
2. One that was sold by the unit PRI often locally commissioned, or bought from a supplier who's offering meets a requirement - authorised by the CO.
3. One that is manufactured on a commission basis by individuals in a unit who then wear it in uniform and authorised by the CO.

Difficult eh? I served in 17/21 and soldiers were advised to ditch the AA badges they wore at depot and buy WM from the PRI. Blackened bronze ones appeared in the late 80's for tactical wear (no part number) and officers, well we just bought our own and only wore the 'official' issued silver one in No1 Dress. So which are official as no one wore the issued one, and who is the actually authorised to authorise?
Hello Stu

I'm no expert in this field, but the following is my view on your conundrum.

I belief the 'official' badge of a regiment is one that has been decided upon by all the relevant Army Clothing committee's etc. and is defined as the official regimental pattern, and is general issue to members of the regiment at public expense, and will have an NSN.

Regimental badges purchased from the PRI are usually of better quality and as you have pointed out, many regt's request lads to ditch their issue badges and obtain another from the PRI, in effect an upgrade but still regimental pattern, usually sourced by PRI, a private purchase with no NSN.

I understand the blackened motto was made available at the PRI as it was clear the was a need for a subdued motto, prior to this most lads apparently used to black their motto's with paint etc. on active service particularly NI.

As for badges commissioned by individuals being worn could you possibly give an example of such a badge? I do know of instances where Nco's Arm badges have been purchased by ex regimental members and worn by the serving NCO's, again these badges were official regimental pattern.

Officers do purchase all their own insignia, however regardless of whether they purchase it from the PRI or Regt'l. tailors it will be the official regimental pattern.

In seems they are all 'Officially worn' but there is only one 'official issue' badge, as it appears to me, that where the badge was purchased is basically immaterial, provided it is of regimental pattern and fit for purpose. I am also fairly sure that the CO of a regiment has a certain amount of autonomy when it comes to making decisions on regimental dress, how far that extends I'm not too sure but I do know that many items are dealt with 'in house' as it were.

Now I've stuck my head above the parapet...........

Rob
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Last edited by Robthereiver; 20-08-15 at 05:21 PM.
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  #5  
Old 20-08-15, 11:41 AM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Stu,
Just to confuse matters, perhaps the term "Semi Official" could also be employed? These would be items such as PRI Mottos, or the Silver and embroidered WG beret badges, which although worn are authorised replacements for official items!

You hit the nail on the head with the term "Reproduction", which is what I use for all the crud being peddled as original. There are very few "Restrike" items amongst this crud, i.e. Insignia produced from "Original" Dies!

Provenance is virtually impossible to establish with items such as cap badges, I still have my brass Leek which I purchased in the 1980's and wore for over 20 years, it has my Army number engraved on the slider, but that could be copied quite easily.

It's my personal opinion that if one spends a little time studying badges then it often becomes quite obvious in the majority of cases what is original and what is reproduction. There are quite often the "Tells" which can help diferentiate from Crud and Cracking!

Far too many collectors IMO, go like a greyhound out of the traps and buy, buy, buy and then moan that the hobby is going to the dogs because there are too many repro items about! If people stopped buying repros or do not return them because they only cost a few quid, then they are only fuelling the market!

A bit of a ramble but Genuine can be official, semi official or authorised! As long as it's intended wearer was in an official capacity! The Gaunt B'HAM badges for example were made for collectors so are reproduction or Fake!

Andy

Last edited by 2747andy; 20-08-15 at 12:25 PM.
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  #6  
Old 20-08-15, 05:09 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Some time ago I saw some contemporary SAS and SBS wings on a militaria site and was pleased to acquire them. I asked if there was SAS headdress badge to go with the SAS wings but was told that his stock had been bought by SAS personnel. The dealer will be known by several collectors but it perhaps best not to name him here. I am not sure what arrangement was reached regarding manufacture, what contracts were used etc - but if they are worn in unit are they acceptable as 'official'. Any thoughts appreciated.
Mike
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  #7  
Old 20-08-15, 05:32 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
Some time ago I saw some contemporary SAS and SBS wings on a militaria site and was pleased to acquire them. I asked if there was SAS headdress badge to go with the SAS wings but was told that his stock had been bought by SAS personnel. The dealer will be known by several collectors but it perhaps best not to name him here. I am not sure what arrangement was reached regarding manufacture, what contracts were used etc - but if they are worn in unit are they acceptable as 'official'. Any thoughts appreciated.
Mike
That's if he was telling the truth! If it is who I think you mean, he has difficulty differentiating between fact and fiction! Constantly in La La Land! I doubt they would buy off the internet went the items are available within the units for pennies!

Andy
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  #8  
Old 20-08-15, 05:44 PM
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Bill A Bill A is offline
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I understand this thread is referring to British badges, but there are some interesting parallels with Canadian procurement. Makers have been known to provide badges for contracts, following sealed patterns, and had over-runs which were sold to the open market.
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  #9  
Old 20-08-15, 06:22 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Andy

Not who you are thinking of obviously (I can guess who that is). The person I am referring to lives in Hereford - those interested need not 'use the internet to acquire items'. Very well connected with the Regiment - very trustworthy no Walter or spoofer - say no more. (I can PM details if required but expect you can now identify who I mean)

The question still stands - responses appreciated

Bill - interesting observation

Regards
Mike

Last edited by Mike B; 20-08-15 at 06:39 PM.
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  #10  
Old 20-08-15, 07:15 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike B View Post
Andy

Not who you are thinking of obviously (I can guess who that is). The person I am referring to lives in Hereford - those interested need not 'use the internet to acquire items'. Very well connected with the Regiment - very trustworthy no Walter or spoofer - say no more. (I can PM details if required but expect you can now identify who I mean)

The question still stands - responses appreciated

Bill - interesting observation

Regards
Mike
Mike,
I think I need the PM, it's been a long day!

Andy
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  #11  
Old 20-08-15, 07:27 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Andy

PM sent

Regards

Mike
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  #12  
Old 20-08-15, 08:05 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Andy

Thanks for PM response - appreciated

Mike
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  #13  
Old 20-08-15, 08:17 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Mike,
There's a thread on here about the current management and their nefarious dealings! Not the only Father and Son outlet that has gone to a Bag of Rat Droppings, on hand down 😱

Andy
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  #14  
Old 20-08-15, 08:36 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Mike,
Sadly the draw of flogging fakes has overwhelmed any desire to aintain a previous reputation

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...nset+Militaria

They're now flogging fakes hand over fist!

Andy

Last edited by 2747andy; 21-08-15 at 07:24 AM.
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  #15  
Old 21-08-15, 07:06 AM
mac mcconnell mac mcconnell is offline
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Default My Motto

I had my second Motto close to 21 years I got it from the PRI Private purchase and my silver one as well I got that later, It turned out the Silver one was a copy from a Firmin. Regimental PRI care not from were badges come from if they look the part and are cheap they will get them in and pass them on to the Lads and make profit.
These wont in many cases even be vetted by the CO as theirs no need as if they look the same who cares if its cheaper, back in the day all money was treasured for Beer token's. I remember when the Bronze Mottos came in.....................twice we were not amused more bills before exercise .

Having seen how many Badges/ Mottos get short shrift if they don't have the proper Mark by the purest which is a safe ish way to collect an Official Badge.
I feel you can miss out on much history on a real badge that may have a story to tell like my Motto a private purchase with a repair but you need to get the Badge from a soldier like that and not a dealer................and NO I am keeping my Motto. You also need to document it when you get it wise words I often get told by Rob well that should muddy the water again.


Mac
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