Need help - is WW1 uniform with 12th NZ insignia correct

[Jeffweil]

Sorry for duplication - didn't realize there is separate NZ section.
Need help determining if this is correct WW1 insignia for NZ 12th Nelsons Infantry.
Tunic has correct cuff rank. Question is about the New Zealand bullion shoulder tabs and the collar insignia.
Thanks

[atillathenunns]

The New Zealand shoulder titles are incorrect for WW1 period.
The cuff rank is incorrect for a Lieutenant, it should be 3 stars for a captains rank.
The collar badges could be officers type, but the WW1 NZ officers did also wear ORs issue badges, a picture of the back of the badge will tell more.

I gather there is no back patch?
Is it named on the inside pocket?

[Jeffweil]

Thanks so much!!
You were correct about rank. 1 star is missing from each cuff - top on 1 side, bottom on the other
No name, but there was a yellow patch inside breast pocket.
Buttons are j r Guant London
Back of collar insignia is shown
Thanks so much

[Jeffweil]

Pics
Yellow patch from pocket
Slip on New Zealand on shoulder straps
Back of collar insignia

[NZEF]

Hi, the slip on New Zealand titles which are late WW2 Italian campaign, J-Force or K-Force period, are not original to tunic. For the 12th Nelson Regiment, would have had NZR (New Zealand Rifles) curved brass shoulder titles. Are there two holes under the NZ titles at base of shoulder straps?

[Jeffweil]

Thanks so much. Yes, there are holes for metal shoulder tabs.
Any idea if the yellow patch is NZ?
Thanks

[NZEF]

It does appear to be the patch of the 3rd Wellington Battalion, however, the centre stripe is typically wider. 12th Nelson was part of the Canterbury Battalion.

[atillathenunns]

The collar badge is ORs issue, and is quite acceptable for a WW1 NZ officer to wear.

The yellow patch does not match any of the NZ WW1 patches or WW2 patches that I have seen.

The 3rd Battalion Wellington Regiment patch mentioned by NZEF is very rare, and on page 21 of the NZ patch bible, is described as - "being known to exist but these may have been produced in the 1920s as museum samples."

Is there any evidence of a patch having been sewn on the back below the collar, or below the shoulder straps?

[Tinto]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

The collar badge is ORs issue, and is quite acceptable for a WW1 NZ officer to wear.

The yellow patch does not match any of the NZ WW1 patches or WW2 patches that I have seen.

The 3rd Battalion Wellington Regiment patch mentioned by NZEF is very rare, and on page 21 of the NZ patch bible, is described as - "being known to exist but these may have been produced in the 1920s as museum samples."

Is there any evidence of a patch having been sewn on the back below the collar, or below the shoulder straps?

Hi Brent,
I have a couple of these 3rd Bn Wellington Regiment patches, also a 3rd Bn Auckland Regiment patch as pictured (albeit without colour) in the patch bible. I'm pretty sure these were worn as they were obtained by my father from WW1 veterans.
Regards, John

[Jeffweil]

Thanks for all the information.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Tinto

Hi Brent,
I have a couple of these 3rd Bn Wellington Regiment patches, also a 3rd Bn Auckland Regiment patch as pictured (albeit without colour) in the patch bible. I'm pretty sure these were worn as they were obtained by my father from WW1 veterans.
Regards, John

Hi John,
I think the last paragraph on page 21 could be a print error, as I too believe the 3rd Battalion patches were issued and worn.

The 4th Brigade was mainly made up from men of the - 20th, 21st, and 22nd Reinforcements and drafts from the Depot, the first draft arriving at the Brigade Camp on March 30, 1917.
IMO the 3rd Battalion patches would have been authorised and issued prior to the Kings review of the 4th Brigade on May 1, 1917.
I have a picture of a NZ officer with the King, that was taken the same day, but unfortunately the patch he is wearing is not identifiable.

The 4th NZ Infantry Brigade arrived in France on May 28, 1917, and was placed under the command of the 2nd ANZAC Corps, as Corps Troops.
On June 10, the Brigade took over the front, River Lys, with two Battalions in the line, relieving two Battalions of the 57th Division, and came under the command of the G.O.C., 3rd Australian Division.

I have examples of all the 1st and 2nd Battalion patches, but only have a 3rd Battalion Otago Regiment patch, and a 4th (Reserve) Battalion Wellington Regiment patch as pictured below.
I would be very interested in seeing your 3rd Battalion patches, and I am sure Jeffweil would be interested to compare your 3rd Wellington patch with his patch.

3rd Battalion Otago Regiment and 4th (Reserve) Battalion Wellington Regiment.jpg

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Jeffweil

Thanks for all the information.

I would suggest as a restoration project, a pair of brass NZR shoulder titles and a matching set of cloth captains stars are added, and you could display it as -1914 to 1916 period.

If there is signs of old stitching under the back of the collar, you might want to dress it up with a Canterbury 1st or 2nd Battalion patch and display it as -1916 to 1919 period.

[Tinto]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Hi John,
I think the last paragraph on page 21 could be a print error, as I too believe the 3rd Battalion patches were issued and worn.

The 4th Brigade was mainly made up from men of the - 20th, 21st, and 22nd Reinforcements and drafts from the Depot, the first draft arriving at the Brigade Camp on March 30, 1917.
IMO the 3rd Battalion patches would have been authorised and issued prior to the Kings review of the 4th Brigade on May 1, 1917.
I have a picture of a NZ officer with the King, that was taken the same day, but unfortunately the patch he is wearing is not identifiable.

The 4th NZ Infantry Brigade arrived in France on May 28, 1917, and was placed under the command of the 2nd ANZAC Corps, as Corps Troops.
On June 10, the Brigade took over the front, River Lys, with two Battalions in the line, relieving two Battalions of the 57th Division, and came under the command of the G.O.C., 3rd Australian Division.

I have examples of all the 1st and 2nd Battalion patches, but only have a 3rd Battalion Otago Regiment patch, and a 4th (Reserve) Battalion Wellington Regiment patch as pictured below.
I would be very interested in seeing your 3rd Battalion patches, and I am sure Jeffweil would be interested to compare your 3rd Wellington patch with his patch.

Attachment 226888

Hi Brent, and Jeffwell,
Here are scans of the 3rd Bn Wellington Regiment (yellow/black/yellow) patches for your interest.
Cheers, John

[Jeffweil]

Thanks!! This is great information.

[Jeffweil]

John, those are great patches. Thanks for sharing with me