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  #31  
Old 19-02-17, 05:56 PM
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btns btns is offline
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This thread is now active once more.

Here is the text from Denver, Colorado

Late 19th Century Copy of 1790's British Officer's Coat

"Scarlet super fine coat with willow green lapels, standing collar and cuffs. Ten buttons in pairs with gold lace on each lapel. Four buttons in pairs on cuffs and pocket flaps. Gilt buttons bear a crown/"GR" device. Heavily padded, silk upper lining with cassimere skirt and turnbacks. Gilt button with embroidered star device on each skirt. A fine, professional tailor's reproduction of a 1790s British coat probably done for a Jubilee celebration. "

and the link:
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...5-a6fa0122a0f4

Buttons in pairs is for the Coldstream Guards.
Looking forward to your comments.
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  #32  
Old 19-02-17, 08:44 PM
charlie962 charlie962 is offline
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Well done, that man!

Extracted from above buttons crown and GR.JPG -looks familiar?
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  #33  
Old 20-02-17, 09:44 AM
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Hello btns

Many thanks for that very interesting update and link - and many thanks to Charlie for providing the close-up of the buttons! I was struggling to make out the design of buttons when Charlie provided the answer!

Other than the fact that the buttons on the uniform in the link are in pairs, I must admit that I do not see a specific link to the Coldstream Guards anymore than a link to the Grenadier Guards as previously considered.

I re-read the article by Bill Carman on "Early Buttons of the Foot Guards" which quite comprehensively dealt with early examples from the regiment but there is no reference to the Coldstream Guards (or either of the two other regiments) ever having worn "Crown/GR" buttons such as those on this uniform.

Does any Guards expert have any information which might show that this design of button was worn by the Coldstream Guards or any of the other Guards regiments?

It is nice to know that these buttons were used on a "military" uniform (even a reproduction!) but I still suspect that they are a "generic" pattern reproduction that, being 'period' and imposing were conveniently used on a lot of different "jubilee" or "tattoo" uniforms representing several regiments from the early 19th century. This might well explain why there seem to be so many of them around - two quite large lots sold recently on ebay - and when I bought mine many years ago (pre ebay!) there were about a dozen of them altogether.

Of course, none of this explains the Pattern Book reference to "Grenadier Guards"!

Roger
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  #34  
Old 20-02-17, 12:58 PM
charlie962 charlie962 is offline
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We are still talking about two distinctly different periods of manufacture:

-The late 19thCentury lot which was quite possibly used for pageant/jubilee purposes.

-The original period lot produced probably c1800. It is this that we are really trying to identify. (GeoIII and GeoIV, 1760-1820)

I thought the two buttons I posted originally might show an example of each,. The Pitt marked one being the later lot.

Charlie
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  #35  
Old 20-02-17, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlie962 View Post
We are still talking about two distinctly different periods of manufacture:

-The late 19thCentury lot which was quite possibly used for pageant/jubilee purposes.

-The original period lot produced probably c1800. It is this that we are really trying to identify. (GeoIII and GeoIV, 1760-1820)

I thought the two buttons I posted originally might show an example of each,. The Pitt marked one being the later lot.

Charlie
Indeed we are talking about two different periods of manufacture.

David in (post 30) seemed to provide the best explanation for the use of the original buttons when he said "I have several examples of the "original" crown/GR cypher buttons. All are open back coatee size, most are gilt, one or two are silver plate ...... Dixon Pickup thinks these are generic Volunteer (or possibly in some cases Militia) buttons c. late 1790's - early 1800's." - my italics.

I would have been totally satisfied with the above explanation and it would follow that the later Pitt buttons were reproductions (produced for an unknown purpose) of these early Volunteer/Militia buttons .... but for btns' posts that clearly show a Pitt pattern book records the reproductions as "Grenadier Guards"!

I honestly don't think we will ever know the whole story of this particular reproduction but just to keep this interesting thread going (oh no, I hear you say!) I would offer the following suggestions -

i) the Pitt pattern book is wrong - although I doubt it - but a button may have been taken out, lost and another one used to replace it;

ii) the button may have been produced for the Grenadier Guards and is not necessarily a button used by them - do pattern books always record the name of the user of the button or is it sometimes the customer who ordered it?

iii) the button is an accurate reproduction of a pattern used by the Grenadier Guards late 18th/early 19th century but not recorded anywhere.

I'm sure there are several other possible explanations but whatever the true story behind these buttons they can at least be easily identified as reproductions!

Roger
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  #36  
Old 28-04-17, 10:26 AM
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Hello All

I thought those of you who have been following this thread might be interested to see this button on offer from endici (no connection with the seller, by the way!).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/General-Of...4AAOSwtGlZAlsr

It seems to be a similar pattern to the ones we have been discussing here. Endici describe it as a "General Officer's ...." button, although to be honest their descriptions of buttons are not always that accurate.

Also interesting is the fact that the maker of the button in the auction is R Bushby of St Martins Lane, London who was in business until the 1820s and was then, I believe, taken over by Pitt & Co the maker of the buttons we have been discussing. A lot of buttons backmarked R Bushby are illustrated in Gwen Squire's book "Livery Buttons: The Pitt Collection". Perhaps Pitt used one of Bushby's dies when they reproduced their slightly different version of the 'GR' button.

Roger
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  #37  
Old 28-04-17, 05:45 PM
Lazio Lazio is offline
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This one was dug up in the midlands 22m width. It does have a backmark I'm trying to work it out as its quite corroded.
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  #38  
Old 25-03-19, 10:30 PM
tarabelle tarabelle is offline
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Default GR Cypher Button Mystery May Be Deepened or Not

Hey

So I have been asked to put this possibility to members by my friend so see below

I saw a button listed as Bermondsey Volunteers for this GR button and looked and found a book Rowlandsons Loyal London Volunteers and on page 14 it states the button is - 'on buttons gr with crown above'
The book in other parts refers to grenadier companies with other volunteer units
I looked to see if I could see anything about the time line and found an article from 1867, so i wondered if maybe the buttons survived as the uniform and was used throughout the bermondsey volunteers history and after Georgian period and perhaps it may also have included a grenadier section which might explain the pattern book ?

Thanks for any thoughts peep

T
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  #39  
Old 27-03-19, 06:25 PM
tarabelle tarabelle is offline
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bump
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  #40  
Old 04-04-19, 03:06 PM
Lazio Lazio is offline
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I think it was more of a standard off the shelf design that many volunteer units chose not just that one London unit. if you look through that book you will see plain and sugar loaf mentioned you would never know if you found one that it belonged to a volunteer unit and could have been used for multiple uses.
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  #41  
Old 30-08-20, 09:16 PM
Lazio Lazio is offline
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threads opening button in silver plate
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File Type: jpg gr1b.jpg (80.5 KB, 12 views)
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