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  #1  
Old 10-12-15, 02:37 PM
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Default Glengarry & Forage Cap 1874-1921

I have been reading Kipling & King Vol 1 and a few other books but I'm still puzzled by the change from Glengarry to Forage cap.

The Glengarry was in use from 1874-1895, the Forage cap from 1898-1921, so what was worn from 1895-1898?

Were all non Scottish Infantry Glengarry's the same and were they black?

The Forage cap I assume is the flat sidecap as seen in these pictures, were these the same for all regiments, black with General Service Buttons.

Rob




Last edited by Rob Miller; 11-12-15 at 10:07 PM. Reason: Replaced 1974 with 1874
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  #2  
Old 10-12-15, 04:24 PM
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Rob – simplistically and considering non Scottish line regiments...

From c. 1874 the undress forage cap for line infantry was the glengarry as you mention.

The field service cap replaced it as the undress forage cap for line Infantry, other than Scottish regiments, from 1893.

The FSC was green for Light Infantry and Rifle Regiments and blue for other regiments. (The first patterns were sealed on 29th May 1893).

In 1902 a new forage cap (the Brodrick) was introduced, which replaced the FSC. ( In India the FSC remained in use until 1914.).

The Brodrick gave away in turn to the peaked forage cap c. 1906.

John
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  #3  
Old 10-12-15, 04:40 PM
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To follow on the khaki peaked cap was replaced in 1915 by the soft peaked trench cap (stiched peak) although there was of course the 'gor blimey' cap in winter 1915 with its ear flaps. The RFC also adopted the khaki side cap.

Post WW1 the army returned to the structured peaked cap which lasted until c.1938 when battledress brought in the khaki side (forage) cap. This in turn was replaced mid-war by the khaki GS cap and berets for some regts. Post WW2 berets beacame the norm.

There were of course lots of regtl variations and hats for other theatres such as the bush hat.

If you go to my Victoriam album I have labelled which Regular regts initially wore collars on their FSC before full sized cap badges were worn. Thye volunteers are a much more complex matter for as your cyclist photo shows they wore differing headgear fro the regulars for some years.
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  #4  
Old 11-12-15, 02:28 AM
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Rob

It occurred to me that I did not answer your question about the colour of the glengarry forage cap.

It was the undress headdress for Sgts and below. For line Infantry regiments it was a very dark blue and edged with a black ribbon which extended to form two ‘tails” of 11 inches long each. Sergeants caps had a black cockade on which the badge was worn while ORs glengarries had no cockade.

The cap had a toori (tuft) on top,I believe for non light infantry and rifles a blue toorie with royal regiments having a scarlet toori. I would appreciate confirmation on this point or clarification that a scarlet toorie was worn by all non rifles and light infantry . I am not going to get into the area of dicing on Scottish regiments.

Light infantry and rifle regiments had a dark green glengarry with a black toori and black ribbon edging .

Some of the confusion may exist around the term “forage cap”.

It is a generic term and does not refer to any particular style , thus the Kilmarnock (sometimes called pork pie ) cap which preceded the glengarry, the field service cap, The New pattern forage cap (so-called Brodrick) and peaked cap that replaced the Brodrick are all forage caps.

Forage Cap is a general designation given to caps worn in undress when full dress headdress is to be preserved and not worn. Sub-sets include caps worn in service dress which may or may not follow the forage cap pattern of the day but sometimes in different colors – such as the difference in the forage caps for other ranks after c. 1907 and the drab service dress versions of the same general appearance used for active service and maneuvers.

As a side note what we call cap badges today generally had their origins in the badges for the field service cap.

As you know for line Infantry regiments the glengarries had their own, large cap badges – generally different from the full dress helmet plates and grenades.

When the FSC was introduced the badge previously worn on the glengarry was too big for use in the FSC and the WO ordered that the left collar badge was to be worn as a cap badge, with some exceptions.

In late 1894 and early 1895 ten regiments had badges designed and sealed for the FSC. This started a process whereby almost every regiment of Infantry and later Cavalry designed a regimental pattern badge specifically for this headdress, to replace the collar badge worn theretofore.

Most of these were subsequently used on the Brodrick and later, the peaked forage caps in turn going from lugs as fitments to sliders in the process in most cases.

These are the origins of today’s cap badges – generally different from their full dress equivalents.

For a great description of the FSC cap badges – essentially the genesis of the “cap badge’ see David Linaker, Field [Service] Cap Badges, Crown Imperial, 113 (July 2004) 27-29.

Things are somewhat different for Cavalry and Guards

John

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 11-12-15 at 03:51 AM. Reason: added comment and a question on blue vs. scarlet toories on the glengarry
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Old 11-12-15, 02:42 AM
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Hi John,

I for one thank You for taking the time to explain what is evidently a complicated topic. The various terms used to describe headdress of all types form the late in the 19th to early 20th centuries has always been rather confusing to me. As someone who freely (and frequently) describes themselves as a novice, I would love a general photographic guide showing these various 'caps' in all their forms and details of dates. Maybe this has already been done or is too complicated but a quick reference would I feel be very useful.

Probably getting a little off topic but most certainly enjoying this thread for the information provided - once again the forum at it's best

Cheers, Roy.
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  #6  
Old 11-12-15, 03:54 AM
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You are welcome Roy.

The person who put this site together had done a fine job on British Heavy Cavalry

http://www.uniformology.com/UIDSPEC.html
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  #7  
Old 11-12-15, 04:11 PM
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Default FS IA references.

For the IA:

( Considerable details, including diagrams, photos, tables, colours
for Cap Crown, Curtain, Peak, Piping; also Buttons, Badges thereon.
)

1. Journal of the IMHS Spring 2001 Volume 18 No. 1 Article pgs 25-29
Officers' Side Caps by Field Marshal Sir John Chapple.
( Has a mention that OR's turban colours do not conform to officers' side cap colours; and a comparative table )

2. Journal of the IMHS Summer 2013 Volume 30 No. 2 Article pgs 75 to 85
The FS Cap (Side Cap) in the IA by Field Marshal Sir John Chapple and Tony McClenaghan.

Thank you all. Now, beginning to understand IA Vols cap badge sizes, periods.

Last edited by pinfrin; 09-01-16 at 09:34 PM. Reason: text size
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  #8  
Old 11-12-15, 04:31 PM
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Thank you all for the replies, I'm beginning to understand now, I had been confused by "Forage" and "Field Service".

With my own interest in the Devonshire Regiment there still appears to be a gap between the end of the Glengarry and the introduction of the QVC Regular Devonshire Cap Badge in 1898 and the Volunteers KC cap Badges post 1902, but the wearing of collar badges on the FSC in this period would explain it, I had heard of this practice with Officers but not ORs.

Rob
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  #9  
Old 11-12-15, 05:30 PM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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Rob

You are exactly right the apparent gap between the demise of the Glengarry (Forage) Cap badge and the appearance of the first regimental pattern “cap badge” will be explained by the regiment using the collar badge on the FSC as ordered by regulations. Their full dress headdress badges probably remained unaltered during this gap (I am no expert on the Devons).

Yes, other ranks were included in this order to wear the left collar badge in the FSC on its introduction . From memory the relevant order is PO/Gen no 1639 of 1893.

Some regiments were excluded, Rifle regiments did not traditionally have collar badges, so initially they did not wear badges in the FSC, from memory the Oxfordshire Light Infantry also fell into this category. Fusilier regiments were ordered to wear the universal grenade pattern 9933. A little after the order the Royal Irish Fusiliers were allowed an exemption and they took the coronet part of their 2-piece collar badge combination into use as a FSC badge. This exemption is documented in WO 359 vol 6 pages 34 & 35 (The RACD list of changes).

In the case of the regiment that interests me most, The Royal Munster Fusiliers the equivalent “gap” lasted from c. 1893 – c. 1897. Although in reality there is no gap and in my collection I display the universal grenade , GM for O/Rs , gilt for senior NCOs as the forage cap badges in use at that time. Officers badges are a little trickier for the Munsters but most did indeed use the embroidered full dress collar badge (left hand one) as the FSC cap badge. Photographs also show some apparently wearing embroidered mess dress collar badges and generic embroidered grenades.

In this period the Munster's full dress grenade stayed the same but the cap badge for wear in the undress cap was the plain universal grenade as explained above. It thus sits between the glengarry grenade and the first regimental pattern "cap" badge. Period photos show this very clearly.

The Munsters submitted a sketch of their proposed regimental design "cap badge" for the forage cap (the FSC) on July 22nd 1897. It was approved as pattern 4642/1898 on April 20th 1898 over 9 months later.

It is the well-known white metal tiger on a gilding metal grenade. One assumes issue of the badge happened from late 1898 into 1899 . It is listed in the 1903 PVCN (priced vocabulary of clothing and necessities) as costing 2 ½ d complete with pin.

Typically these “cap badges” were approved for both the FSC and also the Foreign Service Helmet on sealing (there is though an interesting twist in the early 1900s when the WO tried to simplify matters by a program to use full dress helmet plate centers and the old fusilier glengarry grenades with long sliders for the universal service headdress (the slouch hat) and the FSH - this was a short lived failure, but that is for another thread and is already documented here on the forum .

All these facts for the Munsters are contained in various volumes of the RACD list of changes stored at the National Archives as WO/359.

If interested PM me your e-mail details and I will copy and send you Maj. David Linaker’s article mentioned earlier. It is an excellent read on this subject. I can also share some articles I have published on the Munsters insignia which covers these topics.

John

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 11-12-15 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Corrected error on the 1900's plan for service dress and FSH. The plan for Fusiliers was to repurpose the Glengarry grenades
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  #10  
Old 11-12-15, 06:33 PM
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Thanks very much John

Rob
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Old 11-12-15, 07:13 PM
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Can I just say thank you to John for a couple of incredibly informative and helpful posts.

Its posts/threads like this that make this forum so useful and makes good use of members research and knowledge and makes sure that information is spread across the collecting community.

Ivan
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