LRDG

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Are you 100% sure you know the differences between an original cast LRDG badge, an original die-struck LRDG badge, and an original die-cast LRDG badge???

I’m not professing I do. I’ve merely said I belief the badge that is the subject of this thread is a fake cast from a MM fake. That’s my opinion.

For reference I’ve attached a die struck and a die cast badge. Again not a single badge shown in this thread is ‘die struck’.

Many of the die cast badges shown here do look the part and very convincing. The number of varieties it seems is staggering almost as many as members and one nearly wonders how they found time to fight the Germans and Italians between having all these badges made.

It also feel this thread has more cloak and dagger action and responses (including lack of) by experts than an LRDG patrol.

As Edy quite aptly said we’re all going to have to draw our own conclusions from research and what has been presented.

[Sonofacqms]

In the book "The men who made the SAS" one of the chapters mentions the fact that when returning LRDG personnel were visiting Cairo they were ordered not to wear their cap badges as many deserters were wearing LRDG badges and posing as members of this elite unit to get free drinks and other perks.

The purpose was for MP's to pick up people wearing LRDG badges.

My point in this thread is where did the deserters obtain these badges, certainly not from LRDG stores, so someone was manufacturing LRDG badges locally.

If or when these impostors were apprehended what became of the badges they were wearing, kept as souvenirs by MP's, thrown in the rubbish bin, who knows?

To get a badge from a veteran now with providence I would say almost impossible, but a very interesting thread nonetheless.

Rob

[dumdum]

Hi

Somewhere I have a copy of a photo of a man I knew who was definitely LRDG. He is sitting at a cafe table in Cairo (?) drinking Stella Artois with his buddies. He told me that this "beer" was made from onions.....

Myths aside, he is wearing his LRDG cap badge. Also have a photo of him wearing his "kefia" (?) in a studio shot.

The photo is not great quality but might be of interest to some. Any interest and I'll post to the Forum.

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by castagain

Hello Edy,

Thanks for your positive contributions to this thread -- as Mike said, it has been very informative and educational for me, particularly regarding the sand cast LRDG variants, of which I knew nothing.

I'd be interested in your feedback on the attached images. I've had this badge for some time -- it's ugly as sin, and didn't resemble any known authentic badge that I was aware of, thus I've relegated it to a dark corner of my spares bin. Compared to the photos of post #35 left and #46, are there some similarities?

Cheers,
Donovan

Hi Donovan, I would love to handle this one but what I can see from the photos I would give it a thumbs up.
Very interesting to see the flat lugs making an appearance so early on.

Edy

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

Hi Donovan, I would love to handle this one but what I can see from the photos I would give it a thumbs up.
Very interesting to see the flat lugs making an appearance so early on.

Edy

Hello Edy
I am sure the flat lugs are contemporary to ME Cdo badge manufacture - also 'early on' - ie 50, 51, 52 ME Cdo formed Geneifa Egypt, circa 1 Aug 1940, 15 Oct 1940, 1 Nov 1940 respectively. I would think their distinctive badge would be issued virtually at the same time as LRDG. LRDG formed at Abbassia, Cairo, 3 July 1940. There are variants of the ME Cdo badge - but that is a whole new debate. Two examples of ME Cdo badge are attached.
Mike

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Luke H

I’m not professing I do. I’ve merely said I belief the badge that is the subject of this thread is a fake cast from a MM fake. That’s my opinion.

For reference I’ve attached a die struck and a die cast badge. Again not a single badge shown in this thread is ‘die struck’.

Many of the die cast badges shown here do look the part and very convincing. The number of varieties it seems is staggering almost as many as members and one nearly wonders how they found time to fight the Germans and Italians between having all these badges made.

It also feel this thread has more cloak and dagger action and responses (including lack of) by experts than an LRDG patrol.

As Edy quite aptly said we’re all going to have to draw our own conclusions from research and what has been presented.

Luke this is my die-struck LRDG badge, fortunately for me it came with a 100% money back guarantee if proven to be a fake, so happy to take it on the chin if you believe it to be a copy, but you will need to give me more than just your belief before I take it back.

I have owned this badge for 15 years, prior to that it has been in two premier NZ LRDG collections.

There is a forum member who has "a medal and document group to a NZ LRDG patrol leader, which came direct from the family of the recipient, and one of these badges was with the group."

Atillas die staped LRDG badge obverse.jpgAtillas die staped LRDG badge.jpgAtillas die staped LRDG badge reverse 2.jpg

[Alan O]

Looking at your badge I would describe is as die-cast. Die struck badges have the reverse imprint of the front detail where as die cast does not have the fine detail but it either flat or impressed (as yours is).

This is very different from casting a badge using just the front imprint or casting it using 'lost-wax' technique.

Using Luke's badges as examples the 13th/18th is die-cast construction which is typical of a design which would be inherently weak if die struck. On the other hand the 13th Hussars badge is a very common fake from the Martin Marsh stable and is die struck so you see the detail on the reverse. Gaunt made this design as a die-cast badge for officers badges and I have a period die-cast one with a slider.

Aaln

[Keith Blakeman]

I'm in the die cast camp too.

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by castagain

Hello Edy,

Thanks for your positive contributions to this thread -- as Mike said, it has been very informative and educational for me, particularly regarding the sand cast LRDG variants, of which I knew nothing.

I'd be interested in your feedback on the attached images. I've had this badge for some time -- it's ugly as sin, and didn't resemble any known authentic badge that I was aware of, thus I've relegated it to a dark corner of my spares bin. Compared to the photos of post #35 left and #46, are there some similarities?

Cheers,
Donovan

Please let us know the diameter of this ugly one,
Thanks Edy

[silverwash]

although the stable door has shut, normally a die-struck item would have shear marks as a result of the ' hob ' tool . I would have thought that a LRDG badge is too intricate to have been die-struck.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Luke this is my die-struck LRDG badge,

It’s a die cast badge it is NOT die struck.

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

fortunately for me it came with a 100% money back guarantee if proven to be a fake,

Money back guarantees do not a real badge make. A now banned member and dealer always used his ‘money back guarantee if unhappy in any way’ as a tag line... he had wonderful 100% eBay feedback but it didn’t make the many fake badges he sold genuine.

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

so happy to take it on the chin if you believe it to be a copy, but you will need to give me more than just your belief before I take it back.

I never said I believed your badge was fake. Aside from the the badge that’s the subject of this thread I’ve not commented on any of the others shown and won’t because I’m not an LRDG expert. I do however know a bit about the MM fakes which is what lead to my initial comments.

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

I have owned this badge for 15 years, prior to that it has been in two premier NZ LRDG collections.

The fakes that started this thread were by the sounds of it in the hands of experienced collectors. Again that’s not any reflection on your badge, I’m just saying.

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

There is a forum member who has "a medal and document group to a NZ LRDG patrol leader, which came direct from the family of the recipient, and one of these badges was with the group."

Attachment 218238Attachment 218239Attachment 218240

That’s probably a good sign then for your badge.

[lifeochil]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

Here are a couple of photos of the back of this badge 1st left & 2nd center. For comparison I have included one with its’ original black finish, 3rd right.

These three badges all have something that the Steve Wende LRDG badge doesn't have.

[lifeochil]

Originally Posted by fairlie63

I guess nobody is discussing the shoulder title because it was very quickly dismissed as fake.

As it's a fake then it can safely be said that James MacKenzie sold this fake title to Steve Wende?

I presume the vendor withdrew it from sale in respect of those opinions.

I wouldn't.

[lifeochil]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Luke this is my die-struck LRDG badge, fortunately for me it came with a 100% money back guarantee if proven to be a fake, so happy to take it on the chin if you believe it to be a copy, but you will need to give me more than just your belief before I take it back.

100% money back guarantee's only means something if the person is honest.

I have owned this badge for 15 years, prior to that it has been in two premier NZ LRDG collections.

I have seen a fake in one of the world's premier collections of a well known author and it's written about in two books.

There is a forum member who has "a medal and document group to a NZ LRDG patrol leader, which came direct from the family of the recipient, and one of these badges was with the group."

I'm a bit confused. Was one of these badges with this group? Was it the sole badge or were more badges with it?

[castagain]

Edy, I added the diameter measurement to my post #90.

Cheers,
Donovan