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  #1  
Old 28-10-12, 05:34 PM
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Default Suffolk Regiment kc, two tower castle

All members of the Forum

I bought the attached badge of the Suffolk Regiment on ebay very recently and would like your opinions as to its authenticity please.
This is the king's crown version with the Castle of Gibraltar having only two towers, i.e. the castle depicted more usually on the qvc version. The later three towered version was introduced I believe by an order dated 31st January 1901. As Queen Victoria died 21st January 1901 we are working in a very compressed time zone but I assume this badge would have been produced late 1901 or early 1902. During this period the manufacturer received instuctions to change the crown only to be followed by another instruction to change the castle.
My question really is, "what am I looking at?" Is this a genuine badge, admittedly with defects, but one produced in a hurry, or is it a reproduction?
My initial opinion was that it is a reproduction. That being the case I would have expected to see a lot more. But I haven't.
Thanks to Paul (Warthog) I now know that the seller does not deal in large quantities of badges and has stated that this one came from the framed collection of an elderly relative for whom he is selling it.
It does feature in Kipling and King but sadly that does not guarantee its authenticity.
I would appreciate your views.

Best wishes

Gordon
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  #2  
Old 28-10-12, 06:29 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Gordon,
it looks fine to me! It was me you out-bid!

Best regards

Andy
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  #3  
Old 28-10-12, 06:43 PM
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Default Suffolk badge

Hi Andy

Music to my ears!!

Best wishes

Gordon
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  #4  
Old 28-10-12, 06:49 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Gordon,
probably a WW1 production, similar to the Northants and E.Surreys, both of which were struck from pre 1901 pattern dies but fitted with sliders?

Andy
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  #5  
Old 28-10-12, 08:46 PM
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matti467 matti467 is offline
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Hello Gordon,
This badge is contemporary with another badge I have seen, the KC Derbyshire cap badge. I have seen one that I have no reason to believe was a restrike but its production period would have been very short in deed. However, I cannot remember whether it was on a slider or lugs.
Yours
Matti
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  #6  
Old 28-10-12, 08:48 PM
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Hi Paul

Could I ask if you know when the Suffolk Regiment started putting the red backing behind the castle? Would it be appropriate on the badge in question?

Hi Matti

Interesting comment because it brings to mind the date (c1907?) for the introduction of sliders and that raises the question of the arrival date of the castle with 3 turrets. If the date above has credibility, and I believe it does, why did the Suffolks continue to have the 2 turreted version for so long?
This in turn raises the question why are there relatively few examples of this badge around?
This one could run and run.

Best wishes

Gordon

Last edited by Alan O; 25-10-13 at 12:05 PM.
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  #7  
Old 28-10-12, 08:59 PM
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The UDR badge backings book just says in use from before 1920. Chief_Chum- Taff Gillingham, may well know. Cheers, Paul.

Last edited by Alan O; 25-10-13 at 12:06 PM.
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  #8  
Old 29-10-12, 12:19 PM
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Cool Two turret Suffolk Rgt

I have a suspicion that the badge shown is not all it should be, unless a "new" variety of Suffolk Rgt cap badge has been discovered and I stand to be corrected.

K&K 603 The Suffolk Regt QVC two turret castle has sprigs below the scroll.

K&K 604 The Suffolk Regt KC two turret castle has sprigs below the scroll. (This is by far the scarcest variety)

K&K 605 The Suffolk Regt KC three turret castle has no sprigs below the scroll. (This always to my mind had the central tower added to the existing die of the two turret variety without the sprigs below the scroll)

There were further alterations to the die and a castle more in keeping with that on all the "Gibralter" badges was made, this pattern is by far the most common and was used up to the amalgamation, for some reason this pattern is not shown in K&K Vol 1 or 2.

My point is, has the central turret been removed from this badge?

Any signs of file marks etc?

If no traces of any tampering are visible then there must be a further variety of Suffolk badge out there.

Your thoughts.

Rob
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  #9  
Old 29-10-12, 12:42 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Rob,
I suspect, as mentioned above that this variation dates from WW1 or earlier? Here's one with undisputable signs of age and use? The central turret does not appear to have been cropped although the slider has!!

Andy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF1001 (2).jpg (96.3 KB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1002 (2).jpg (98.0 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1004 (2).jpg (61.0 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1005 (2).jpg (84.0 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1003 (2).jpg (98.4 KB, 38 views)
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  #10  
Old 29-10-12, 12:45 PM
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Andy, as this discussion goes on would it be possible for you to also put up a three turret castle KC badge too please.
It is an interesting thread.
Yours
Matti
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  #11  
Old 29-10-12, 01:01 PM
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Cool Suffolk two turret

Andy, this must be the "new" variety I referred to, I will have to look harder when I go to fairs, but you can surely see my point of how easy it would be to get a badge K&K 605 and cut the central tower out or even file it down to make it look like the battlements on a KC two turret variety.

The two turret KC K&K 604 is a very scarce badge and one that took me many years to acquire, so the opportunity to make one out of a three turret KC is very tempting for some people.

Rob
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  #12  
Old 29-10-12, 01:36 PM
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Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
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Gordon,

This I think is what is meant by the UDF book-written to raise funds for the Ulster Defence Regiment Benevolent Fund.

P.B.
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File Type: jpg img002.jpg (47.9 KB, 25 views)
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  #13  
Old 29-10-12, 05:27 PM
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Default Suffolk Regiment kc 2 Turrets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonofacqms View Post
I have a suspicion that the badge shown is not all it should be, unless a "new" variety of Suffolk Rgt cap badge has been discovered and I stand to be corrected.

K&K 603 The Suffolk Regt QVC two turret castle has sprigs below the scroll.

K&K 604 The Suffolk Regt KC two turret castle has sprigs below the scroll. (This is by far the scarcest variety)

K&K 605 The Suffolk Regt KC three turret castle has no sprigs below the scroll. (This always to my mind had the central tower added to the existing die of the two turret variety without the sprigs below the scroll)

There were further alterations to the die and a castle more in keeping with that on all the "Gibralter" badges was made, this pattern is by far the most common and was used up to the amalgamation, for some reason this pattern is not shown in K&K Vol 1 or 2.

My point is, has the central turret been removed from this badge?

Any signs of file marks etc?

If no traces of any tampering are visible then there must be a further variety of Suffolk badge out there.

Your thoughts.

Rob
Hi Rob

You raise an interesting idea; one I hadn't thought of checking.

I'm not sure if the attached photographs help but I think they show there are no signs of turret demolition. The original castellations are visible.
The badge is very, very similar to that shown by Andy. Does this mean there is another variety out there?

Best wishes

Gordon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Suffolk Regt Castellations 2.jpg (20.2 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg Suffolk Regt Castellations 1.jpg (18.9 KB, 38 views)
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  #14  
Old 29-10-12, 06:51 PM
chief_chum chief_chum is offline
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"However, having captured your attention, could I ask if you know when the Suffolk Regiment started putting the red backing behind the castle? Would it be appropriate on the badge in question?"

That would depend on the Battalion - 1/Suffolk wore a red backing but 2/Suffolk did not...

Taff
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  #15  
Old 29-10-12, 07:05 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
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Just for Matti! 3 Tower Regimental Castle variations and all slidered!



Andy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF1006 (2).jpg (89.3 KB, 60 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1009 (2).jpg (98.6 KB, 52 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1010 (2).jpg (98.7 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1011 (2).jpg (99.0 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1012 (2).jpg (98.4 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1013 (2).jpg (98.8 KB, 38 views)
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