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  #46  
Old 30-07-11, 07:09 PM
Charlie585 Charlie585 is offline
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Originally Posted by tynesideirish View Post

Governments never learn.

If I was Argentina I would wait another 9 months then march back unopposed into the Malvinas...

Then If I was Iran I'd kick off. The World is bankrupt. WW3 is long overdue...
1. Sad but true

2. The odds on this one must be getting shorter by the day

3. When this one kicks off we probably won't need boots on the ground, just heads between legs. Kissing our ar*** goodbye

All cheerful stuff for a Saturday evening

Ry
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  #47  
Old 30-07-11, 07:19 PM
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Governments never learn. Costly wars / conflicts / Postings that go on and on, Northern Ireland, Cyprus, B.A.O.R, Iraq. Afghanistan... Then CUTS on an already over stretched Services.

Remember back in 82? Due to the Tories, No Parachute Brigade, a token Airborne force (6 Field Force), A Navy which was due to be decimated, including all the Aircraft Carriers. An Armoured heavy B.A.O.R.

If the Junta had waited a further 9 months Britain could not have retaken the Falkland Islands.

If I was Argentina I would wait another 9 months then march back unopposed into the Malvinas...

Then If I was Iran I'd kick off. The World is bankrupt. WW3 is long overdue...
History is full of 'ifs'. If Lee had ordered Yewell to take the Round Tops at Gettysburg the outcome of the Civil War would have been quite different. If Eisenhower had allowed Patton to continue his advance, the division of post war Europe would have been quite different and if George Bush Snr had been defeated in the Presidential election both he and his son would not have taken the western world into so many useless and wasteful conflicts. But those 'ifs' didn't happen and we all know the results ! Oh to be able to re-write history ! David
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  #48  
Old 30-07-11, 07:35 PM
Charlie585 Charlie585 is offline
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If we were to stop diluting our armed forces maybe in future we wouldn't have to wish that we could rewrite history.


Of course the forces vote being now as small as it is doesn't really count for anything anymore.

Better then to keep the dependants of our bloated welfare state in the style that they are accustomed to. Far more worthy to donate majority of our GDP to those that have never or are unlikely to contribute to it. I won't mention the overseas aid budget.

There, I went and got political. Sorry gents.

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  #49  
Old 30-07-11, 07:39 PM
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Like it or not its a political subject. In this day and age in the UK, as a nanny state, everything has become political business, even the size of a sheet of toilet paper or how long it takes you to cross the road.

Phil
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  #50  
Old 31-07-11, 12:18 AM
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Hi Gent's all good points and I do agree, even living here in the US the same questions have been raised as to the Welfare state etc, and it excess's. Don't loose it, it will nye on impossible to get it back

But really to put it in a nutshell, when the army and it's eventual size, is committed under the pretext of "democratization" of a dark and barren world, when in fact is it to gain political and economical control of a region - don't try to kid me it's from the goodness of our hearts. One could say we have only ever made that cynical move, but I say no; we haven't. There have been times in our history where we have defended the weak, and in the end even knowingly sacrificed an empire to protect it from probably the most heinous of regimes (Nazism and Japanese imperialism), this was the good fight, the present one's are not. The casualties of 1914-45 can be looked upon as a sacrifice willingly made for the better of civilization -the present one's cannot.

No one there or here in US is going to convince me otherwise that this wasn't a "good fight" And this takes us to the original point, size of the army. The size should and will no doubt mirror the economic fortunes of the British. Change that, and back come's the big stick. Although I'd rather spend it though on the population that earns it and pays for it, than subsidize the less committed of our Allies in their defense and economic fortunes.

I agree in '82, we were as you might say, "caught with our trouser's down", but as in a previous post it was said in the end "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog". The state of the British Army in 1982 wasn't a result of rampant thoughtless cutback's, but the product of a weak and at times verging on a 3rd world economic status. A time when the UK went cap in hand to the IMF in '74, and was refused. What did come out of the 80's though was a new and vibrant ECONOMIC power in the UK. And that in the end is what matters.

I would rather spend the resources on the population that earns it and provides it as mentioned before, not expend it on subsidizing corporate global policy. I mean you'd think we were back in the day's of the East India Company, renting our troops out. Remember this, that oil pipe line is still being built to the Indian Ocean through Afghanistan from southern Russia. And I thought we were there to "spread light and civilization in a dark and barren world".......

This will be my last post on this as it can go round and round, but remember this. If a fight, a "Good fight" does come, we should and most probably will lead from the front as we always have; with what ever size of army we have. But never again should we commit limited resources to FOLLOW blindly in the foot steps of an aggressor looking to secure it's own agenda at the cost of our Blood and Treasure.

Many regards as always.
Simon.
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  #51  
Old 31-07-11, 08:01 AM
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Simon - You post a sound finale to the thread. I believe there have been some interesting exchanges of views on this one. David
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  #52  
Old 31-07-11, 11:18 AM
REMEVMBEA1 REMEVMBEA1 is offline
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Counsel for the Defence sais

We have been reading the news over here in the UK about the US national debt in the trillions of dollars with President Obama struggling to find ways of reducing it. Inevitably, the question of defence spending raises its head but for the US that doesn't seem to be an option on Capitol Hill !

And yet I read today that the Commander of US forces in Afghanistan is telling his troops that they may not get paid.

The sad truth is that the country is broke and cuts have to be made but I have always thought that recuctions could be made in a more sympathetic manner by , for example , reducing battalions to company strength and combining those companies to form battle groups this would achieve two ends , recduction in manpower and preservation of regimental traditions and pride.
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  #53  
Old 31-07-11, 03:22 PM
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Question What To do?

I really had not intended to comment any more on this thread. So much for good intentions. Let me state from the beginning that I did not vote for Obama and I have not been impressed by him since he assumed office. My impressions do not really matter in the grand scheme of things. The impressions of the Chinese, Iranians, and who knows who else, do. I don't see him "struggling" at all. Ideologues don't struggle. Cuts must be made, absolutely. But what? Our coming election must answer this basic question. It will not be pretty. I greatly fear that a future American president will address us and say that he or she has nothing to offer but cuts, eliminations, reductions and sacrifice. And, oh by the allies, look to your own defenses.

What do we do? We, being the West in general, but mainly we being you British and we Americans, who share a common heritage, culture, and language. Be prepared, I think, the Boy Scout Motto. This is an easy concept to state, but it is very difficult to carry out. Which is why you have Parliament and we have our Congress, to hammer out the meaning of "prepared." So, let the hammering begin!

An aside, I did attend a show yesterday and I did find some badges for sale. Same dealer as last year with the same badges. Rats!

Don
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  #54  
Old 31-07-11, 05:54 PM
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I too did not intend to comment further. However, my wife being Russian, we have just heard that state benefits have been cut in Russia so that an already impoverished population are even poorer off. That in the face of news that the number of Russian millionaires and billionaires have doubled on the Forbes index since last year. With armed forces short of fuel and spare parts, the once mighty 'Soviet' power is on its knees. How long before we in the west get a taste of the same ? Sorry to be so political but having been to Russia many times I have seen the abject poverty of older people and the disabled - not to mention the 14 million registered alcoholics. David
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  #55  
Old 31-07-11, 07:11 PM
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I like many others here have stood on the line, and when the time came, I held it fast, and fought, no one ever crept past me or my comrades, ........ ever !!!

My Father stood on the same wall, and fought, his father stood there, and also fought, as did his father !!!

My sons have not, ........... need i say more than that.

When the time comes, who will stand there ???

You, ........ You, ............. or You maybe ?? You'll be too old, old man.

Remember this gentlemen, when the storm comes, remember to close the doors, and open the windows, cos if you don't, it's gonna rip the house to bits.

A sad day isa coming, bow our heads in shame.

FBK
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  #56  
Old 31-07-11, 10:01 PM
Charlie585 Charlie585 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy Ken View Post
I like many others here have stood on the line, and when the time came, I held it fast, and fought, no one ever crept past me or my comrades, ........ ever !!!

My Father stood on the same wall, and fought, his father stood there, and also fought, as did his father !!!

My sons have not, ........... need i say more than that.

When the time comes, who will stand there ???

You, ........ You, ............. or You maybe ?? You'll be too old, old man.

Remember this gentlemen, when the storm comes, remember to close the doors, and open the windows, cos if you don't, it's gonna rip the house to bits.

A sad day isa coming, bow our heads in shame.

FBK
I agree with the sentiment that you express Ken. The way I see it is that it is soldiers that win wars not economists or armchair generals sat on their arses.
There will always be wars to fight whether in fields afar or closer to home, they are fought in our interest in order to preserve our ideals and way of life and always have been. The apologists for our our involvement in the current confilict need to take their heads out of their Ar*** and accept that it is far better to take our enemies on on their home turf than it is to do it on our own streets.
Of course there will be losses within the ranks of our forces and who could not be moved when reminded of this and of the families that are left behind.

What needs to be remembered though is that our soldiers are professionals, "volunteers" who sign up for the life and the risks associated with it. Every time I hear someone say "our poor boys" when referring to our soldiers on operations it makes me cringe. These "Boys" are warriors, a brotherhood of men who believe in what they are doing and all they really ask is for the right kit and a sufficient number of fellow soldiers to enable them to do the tasks that they are trained for without being stretched to the limit.

Besides that, in order to keep an army sharp and trained, conflict has its merits, in fact it is a necessity. It was the view some time back that the best training ground that the British army had in recent times was Northern Ireland. Some may find that unpallatable but it was true. In a perfect world there would be no war or need for armies and we could all sit back and relax, the world in its current turmultuous state though is far from perfect and to maintain a field force large enough to counter current and future threats is in my opinion the only sensible course.

Ry
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  #57  
Old 01-08-11, 12:05 AM
John L John L is offline
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I for one look at history. Take the Spartens. The best troops with best equipment of their times. What did they gain a little time was all. Now what if that 300 would have been 3,000.
Until people are willing to but their money up things will only go down hill,

John
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  #58  
Old 01-08-11, 01:14 AM
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LONGSHANKS LONGSHANKS is offline
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I suppose your saying the British should stump up the money for the defense of others. I can tell you this, the American's are sick of funding NATO at 80%. And then only two chip in the actualy honour the alliance - and guesss what both Anglo-Saxon.....

There's only so far the statement "My army is not permitted to fight outside my boarders" garbage you can take. And the your ignorant of the facts if you think posturing about standing at the ramparts alone, weathering some storm alone etc, is a noble thing. But the only way you can have a fully manned army bigger than the other larger economies have in Europe is to cull a few old people and the handicapped; maybe get the money that way.

If someone can give me 5 FACTUAL advantages to the nation (question both for the US and UK) of the last 10 years of war and I'll leave it there. No jingoism, no nonsense on keeping it away from our shores etc. Rock solid achievements, other than the best prosthetics in a generation. You may be right they are volunteers, but I bet loosing a leg as an "Auxiliary" to a foreign power can be a bit galling. Following was never our way, and should never be again. Make your own destiny and let others fulfill their own.

Last edited by LONGSHANKS; 01-08-11 at 01:39 AM.
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  #59  
Old 01-08-11, 06:12 AM
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Would a Moderator please shift this thread away from Infantry (and Guards) Badges and park it somewhere more appropriate. Thanks.
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  #60  
Old 01-08-11, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
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Would a Moderator please shift this thread away from Infantry (and Guards) Badges and park it somewhere more appropriate. Thanks.
I would agree with Mike - I believe the original thread has gone way off track and there must be a more appropriate pigeon hole. The posts are very relevant in their own way but not, as Mike has pointed out, under infantry and guards badges. David
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