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  #1  
Old 20-06-10, 05:30 PM
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Default R.W.F. Officers' Badges – opinions required please

I’ve been looking out for badges at the local boot sales for a while now, but so far the few that I’ve seen have either been modern reproductions/restrikes or have not been what I have a particular interest in. However, this morning I think I may have struck lucky in picking up these six Royal Welsh/Welch Fusiliers officers’ badges - please see attachments (hope this works as I haven’t tried uploading directly to the Forum before!) .

The first OSD cap badge has the wide flame pattern that I’ve seen before (I think Bantam has one similar to this as his avatar?), though I’m not sure if the blades haven’t been refitted/replaced. The second one is a post-1920 ‘Welch’ version, which although un-marked I think could be by Firmin? Number three is only a one-piece construction rather than the usual two, but its poor definition does make me a bit suspicious it could be a fake, whilst the fourth OSD badge carries a Gaunt plaque though sadly has one blade broken. The other two badges are, I believe, collars, though as I am only now beginning to look at the R.W.F.’s badges I’d appreciate some clarification on this. Indeed as I know we have a few Welsh experts on the Forum, I’d really be most grateful for any comments about any or all of the badges. Many thanks.

Best regards

Martin
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RWF OSD Fronts.jpg (45.1 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg RWF OSD Backs.jpg (31.0 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg OSD RWF Fronts.jpg (42.9 KB, 77 views)
File Type: jpg OSD RWF Backs.jpg (35.1 KB, 83 views)
File Type: jpg RWF Collars Fronts.jpg (53.6 KB, 82 views)
File Type: jpg RWF Collars Backs.jpg (44.3 KB, 62 views)
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 20-06-10 at 05:54 PM.
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  #2  
Old 20-06-10, 05:35 PM
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The second two looked liked "Bronze coated" gilding metal?..... the Gaunt plate looks nice and "un-tidy".
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 20-06-10 at 05:48 PM.
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  #3  
Old 20-06-10, 05:57 PM
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I can't comment in detail (wait for 41st !) but they look like a very nice collection. I've never been to a boot fair in my life, perhaps I ought to !!
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  #4  
Old 20-06-10, 06:56 PM
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Default Bronze-Coated Gilding Metal R.W.F. O.S.D. Badge

Hi Griff

Yes, I think you’re right about at least the third OSD badge being a bronze-coated gilding metal one. It’s certainly markedly heavier than the others, though with those long pointed blades I’m hoping it might be an early badge? Mind, still a bit concerned it might be a modern fake - we will see!?

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 20-06-10 at 09:33 PM.
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  #5  
Old 20-06-10, 06:57 PM
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Default Boot Sale R.W.F. Badges

Hello Julian

If you have the time it might well be worth your while popping along to a boot sale near you - you never know what you might find! I did actually see a King’s badge today for £5, but thought twice about picking it up for you as you’re probably likely to already have it. To be honest these were the first R.W.F. badges I’d seen ’round here, so zeroed in on them as soon as I spotted them. The fella had one of the OSD badges and the two collars on his table with a few other badges, and wanted £3 or £4 each for them. Whilst I’d seen this chap before I’d never seen him with badges, so had a chat about them and he said he had a few more down on the floor! In the end he agreed to let me have all six badges for £15, which I think was a real bargain. I must say I’ve been a bit envious of some of the boot sale finds other Forum members have had, so was chuffed to bits with today’s find! Mind, that didn’t mean I wasn’t in the dog house with my beloved for spending good money on yet more badges (think I’ll have to raid the piggy bank). Let’s hope Kevin (41st) gives things the thumbs-up?

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 20-06-10 at 07:37 PM.
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  #6  
Old 20-06-10, 07:29 PM
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Smile Boot sale bargains

Martin, they certainly look good to me, if anyone thinks you have overspent I'm sure some forum members would give you a profit on these great badges, I for one would.
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  #7  
Old 20-06-10, 09:35 PM
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Default Boot Sale R.W.F. Bargains

Hi Rob

Yes, I too think they were a bargain, but we’re on a bit of a tight budget here so I can understand my dearest’s concerns. I’m glad to hear you think they’re all good badges - I did like the look of them and count myself very fortunate today in getting them for what I think was a very good price. I think I’ll be hanging on to the cap badges, but I don’t know about the collars yet – haven’t bought any collars before and was trying to just stick to cap badges! Anyway, I look forward to maybe getting further comments on things from some more members. Thanks again.

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”
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  #8  
Old 21-06-10, 09:06 AM
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Da iawn Martin,
What a great pick up, you've done better than you thought.
1. This wide flamed pattern was worn by Territorial Officers.
2. Just standard post 1920 issue and fairly modern.
3. I agree that your one piece looks poorly defined, but once piece ones are scarce. The one I have is better defined but I don't think yours is iffy as I've only come across 3 so far in all my years of collecting.
I don't know why they were made as one piece yet.
4. Nice Gaunt example, I have a few and just sold one without any blades. If you are going to get tthe blade reattached just ask that the bronze colouring is kept light. All Gaunt plaque examples I've seen are.
5. This is not just any collar, it's an early pattern (no loop in the tail) Militia or Volunteer Officer's example with the normal silver on gilt colours reversed.
6. Early pattern collar.
All in all a great pick up.
Bendigedig a llongyfarchiadau.
Hwyl,
Kevin
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  #9  
Old 21-06-10, 11:00 AM
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For comparison here's my one piece OSD badge. I've also posted a 2nd VB OSD as this is also one piece and this form of construction may have something to do with the Volunteers or Militia.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 083.jpg (57.6 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg 084.jpg (61.4 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg 065.jpg (64.2 KB, 17 views)
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  #10  
Old 21-06-10, 07:54 PM
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Default R.W.F. Badges & Collars

Shw mae Kevin

Many thanks indeed for the comprehensive assessment – so it would appear I am even more fortunate in my latest acquisitions than I initially thought! When I saw the one OSD badge with the collars I thought it might be worth my while getting these, if it wasn’t going to be too much for all of them. Seems as though I came up trumps then so to speak, seeing that the one looks to be a militia/volunteer officers one.

I see in your R.W.F. album that you do have a silver and gilt wide flamed badge, that you attribute as a Territorial Officer's, 1908-1920, and which seems to be an exact match style-wise to my new OSD one. The blades on yours seem to be bent ’round so I can’t tell if the shape of the end is like mine or not – any chance you could have a look at yours to see please? You also look to have a nice post-1920 OSD one, again with this wide flame pattern, though the back of this looks quite different to mine.

It was good to compare the one piece OSD with yours, even if mine is quite different. It is a shame it has such poor definition, as I can’t help thinking it might be a bit of a homemade casting. Those pointed blades are quite distinctive however, and I see Andy has an OSD in his RWF album here with similar ones; though his is a two piece construction and the front doesn’t quite match mine. I did see your Gaunt one for sale, and have to admit I was tempted, but obviously am very pleased my new one only cost me £2.50! Do you think there is some inherent weakness in the blades on these Gaunt badges, as it seems to be a regular thing that they turn up with broken blades?

Since buying things I have been wondering what else the fella might have had before I got there, considering I didn’t make it to the boot sale until gone ten. As I said, I hadn’t seen any RWF badges at the local sales before, so in all the excitement I forgot to ask him where he got them from – if he’s there next week I might just do that, as it would be good to have a bit of background info on them. Anyway, many thanks to you and all the other members who’ve commented on things - I really do appreciate it. As you can imagine I’m thrilled with my boot sale bargains!!

Best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 21-06-10 at 08:00 PM.
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  #11  
Old 21-06-10, 08:55 PM
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Noswydd dda Martin,
I've checked my wide flame pattern silver and gilt and the blades are exactly the same as yours i.e long and thin. Mine are just folded over and I'm loath to unfold them for obvious reasons.
The position of the wires for the front overlay is also the same. I would say they are from the same manufacturer.

As to the Gaunt badges I do think there is a general fault with the blades, possibly because they are very narrow and thin compared to some others. My daughter Non snapped one off the other day when I was sorting out the RWF badges in their tray. She is only 4 1/2 so I had to forgive her.

I've just bought a 1st VB bronzed version similar to the 2nd VB bronzed one in my album, but this one has a Bent & Parker slider rather than lugs so I'm a little nervous until I get it in hand.

Hwyl,
Kevin
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  #12  
Old 22-06-10, 06:19 AM
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Default R.W.F. O.S.D. Badges

Bore da Kevin

Many thanks for checking your silver and gilt wide flamed badge against my new OSD one – like you I’d also noticed the position of the wires, and would certainly go along with both of them being by the same maker; as they do look to be an exact match in everything except the metals used. By the way, as mine seems to have a darker brown coating, do you think it’s more likely to be nearer 1920 than 1908? It’s good to know the blades are alike too, as I was concerned those on mine could be replacements, but from what you’ve said it would seem they might just have been refixed. Shame about one of your Gaunt one’s getting broken, but as you say you couldn’t be angry with your daughter especially as these look to be so prone to snapping off – besides accidents do happen!

With regard to the one piece OSD badges – do you think it could be that this is how they were first made when service dress came in, and that it was only later that the industry moved to making then in two pieces? I’m assuming here that the overlaid Prince of Wales feathers, etc., is die-stamped rather than die-cast like the grenade and flame. My limited experience of Leicesters OSD badges is that they seem to be all one piece die-cast, though they are a larger badge than the RWF one. Perhaps the move to two piece construction was a way of getting a better defined badge? As I say mine is rather poor in this respect, though being quite heavy, having those long pointed/tapered blades, and a more milk chocolate brown coating all perhaps point to it being an early badge?

Obviously I’m much better placed geographically now to find RWF badges, unlike my main interest which is still the Leicesters and Uppingham tiger ones, so hopefully I will come across some more in the future – though I doubt I’ll replicate last Sunday’s cache anytime soon! I have a feeling it was someone’s little collection, as I can’t imagine you’d usually get quite so many OSD badges together like that. When I next see the chap I bought them off I will try and find out more about them; if he can remember that is. I’d really be interested to see your latest purchase once it’s arrived, as I’m quite interested in Bent & Parker. I have a few Leicesters ones that I believe are by the Firm, though sadly none are marked as such. Anyroad, many thanks again for getting back to me about things – always good to have your input.

Very best regards

Martin
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From Hindoostan, Gibraltar and Almanza; to Dunblane, Alma and Brandywine: Tigers, Steelbacks, Dutch Guards, Leather Hats, Nanny Goats and Red Feathers!
Interested in style and variation of post-1893 regimental cap badges for the Leicesters, the Northamptons, the Warwicks, the K.L.R., the R.W.F. and the D.C.L.I.

“Scutelliphiliacus in vestri insignia pergaudete”

Last edited by 'Ticker' Riley; 22-06-10 at 12:12 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-10-10, 10:02 PM
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I am wondering if the one-piece RWF OSD badges might be local purchase from India or Egypt. A lot of regiments based there did this as a temporary expedient.
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Old 13-10-10, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
I am wondering if the one-piece RWF OSD badges might be local purchase from India or Egypt. A lot of regiments based there did this as a temporary expedient.
Toby,
These look too good for Indian or Egyptian made pieces. I do hace a couple of those to the Welsh, Brecknocks & Pembs Yeo in my collection and they are nowhere near to the same standard.
Hwyl,
Kevin
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Old 13-10-10, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 41st View Post
For comparison here's my one piece OSD badge. I've also posted a 2nd VB OSD as this is also one piece and this form of construction may have something to do with the Volunteers or Militia.
Sut mae 41st,
The 2nd V.B. is the officers S.D pattern.
Visited R.W.F. museum on Saturday disappointed in the amount of badges available for viewing.
Hwyl
Bantam
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