British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Books by Forum Members


Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Canadian Military Insignia > General Topics

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-12-08, 12:34 AM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,422
Default Mazeas Corrections

Unfortunately, Mazeas 1920-50 has some errors. How about posting the errors that you have found or of which you are aware?
To start:
  1. Canadian Technical Training Corps plastic S.26b?
  2. Peterborough Rangers M89b Collar variation with CEF bn numbers
  3. M96 and M95 Images, sequence and names need to be corrected.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-12-08, 12:51 AM
Pylon1357's Avatar
Pylon1357 Pylon1357 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back to my home east of Ottawa
Posts: 792
Default

The lack of collars shown for the Calgary Regiment. M. 154 on page 106. might be a small omission, however it lets one believe there were no collars for the Regiment.
__________________
Cliff


http://www.irishregimentofcanada.ca
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-12-08, 02:12 AM
regimentalrogue regimentalrogue is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 202
Default

I confess I don't have a copy, but if someone will be so kind as to send me a scan of the pages for The RCR I'll give it a look over?

If possible, I'd like a cover scan as well, and I'll add it here.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-12-08, 03:49 AM
DavidS's Avatar
DavidS DavidS is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Calgary AB Canada
Posts: 997
Default

N.N.S. Highlanders "N.N.S. HIGH'RS" variant overlooked (title like the illustrated enamel officers M136a, but struck w.m.). And speaking of which, was there ever a "N.N.S. HIGH'RS (M.G.)" officers badge or do they all read "N.N.S. HIGH'RS"?

Incorrect date for 8th Princess Louise Hussars overseas pattern (C60), or he didn't know about/omitted the overseas pattern. I believe the letter/word spacing on the actual WW2 type is tighter than the badge Mazeas illustrates, so I lean toward the latter. I'd be guessing at the correct issue date, so hopefully someone like Jo can fill that in.

Officers general list badge shown (S29) is the enameled type, but Mazeas includes neither the "Canada" leaf O.R. general list badge nor the all metal officers type as shown in Tripp.

If someone can clarify the difference between Queen's Rangers (M26) cap badges illustrated, I'd be appreciative. He has 2 dates, 1926 and 1929, but I can see no difference in the cap badges; are the differences just confined to the collars and shoulders?

In a recent forum discussion about the Irish Fusiliers of Canada (Vancouver Regiment) bomb (M24) vs, crowned bomb (M24a) badges, the dates seem out of whack to me. Didn't boots and saddles say that 1937 was when they received authorization for the crown? If so, M24a s/b 1937, but what date goes with M24?

Similarly, per recent mad4thcef's postings about the Ft. Garry Horse, shouldn't C50 be dated 1915 or 1916, and C50a be 1922?

The RCR badge (M1) is the Guelphic rather than Imperial crown from 1926. Needs another pic.

Duplication of M166a -- once for West Toronto Regiment then again for Toronto Scottish officers. Someone needs a new number.

What's up with M53/M53a: two numbers for the same illustration?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-12-08, 06:14 AM
Doug N's Avatar
Doug N Doug N is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 243
Default

David,
I'll give a couple of poor opinions on your questions.

Agreed the w/m N.N.S. HIGH'RS seems missing. I believe this was chronologically the first badge. Enamelled officers badges exist in the MG & NNS HIGH'RS pattern. To my knowledge there is no NNS HIGHLANDERS badge in silver & enamel.

The 1st Bn 8th PLH badge (the overseas pattern) is reported to have appeared in 1942. It may well be that it was not authorized by a General Order until 1950 - I don't know. If there is a difference between wartime & post war badges, it's more likely a reflection of British vs. Canadian manufacture - i.e. variants of the same badge rather than a pattern change.

The Queens Rangers cap badges are essentially all the same. I think you're right - Mazeas is showing the newer collars reflecting the MG designation received in 1936.

The Irish fusiliers 'bomb badge' was authorized in 1937. The Regiment wanted it to include the coronet to reflect their affiliation with the Royal Irish Fusiliers. Apparently the government agreed that they could wear the coronet, but refused to fund any changes. In other words, they had tacit permission to wear a badge which was not formalized by a General Order. Again, I don't know when the GO came through - probably a couple of decades later. The early crowned bomb badges are commony found with the coronet attached with a brass tab soldered to the reverse - a modification likely by a Vancouver jeweller, paid for out of Regimental funds.

M53 / M53a - is he trying to tell us that the badge exists in different colours, black & brass?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-12-08, 10:18 AM
DavidS's Avatar
DavidS DavidS is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Calgary AB Canada
Posts: 997
Default

I see what you mean about M53/M53a. Everywhere else Maz. doesn't differentiate if there is more than one material (eg. 48th Highlanders, Halifax Rifles), just design variations, but in this case, looking back at the entry, it looks like the blackened badge was for the Wellington Rifles, then the same badge but in brass for when they became the Wellington Regiment.

Which, I suppose, raises the point as to whether identical badges in different materials should be noted as variants and sub-numbered. Then what about makers? Distinctive materials differences (i.e. late war vs. early war or late 30s production? Lugs?

When I collected stamps, it seemed each known variation had a distinct Scott's or some other catalgue number, not just the overall pattern. My vote would be to do the same thing for badges if the aim is to create a comprehensive cataloging system.

Officers' badges is another can of worms; Maz. includes a few, maybe just 5 or 10 at most. The NNS Highlanders is one. Others I remember offhand are the Toronto Scottish, Garrison Regiment, Seaforths and Le Regiment de Quebec. My long-on-opinion-short-on-fact thought is that these are there because they are 'distinctly' different -- pieces in the case of the Seaforths, sizes in the case of the Toronto Scottish & Reg. de Quebec, materials in the case of the Garrison, then a combination of things in the case of the NNS Highlanders.

But based on that criterion, why wouldn't he include the Assiniboia Regiment officers (cloisonné), or even list the materials variants for the plethora of bi-metal officers badges like the BCDs, Lincoln & Welland, South Sasks, etc., etc.?

All this muttering and 'what-abouting' makes me sound like I should move back to the Canuck forum, and is not really the tone I want to convey. I really think Mazeas is an exceptional resource, if only because he took the time and effort to do it and no one else followed suite near as well. However, is this threads original question really are we (i.e. the Canadian forum members) collectively looking to come up with the best, most comprehensive Canadian badge reference and database ever? Could make a great stocking stuffer
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-12-08, 10:55 AM
Mike's Avatar
Mike Mike is online now
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: North of Hadrian's Wall
Posts: 2,157
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by regimentalrogue View Post
I confess I don't have a copy, but if someone will be so kind as to send me a scan of the pages for The RCR I'll give it a look over?

If possible, I'd like a cover scan as well, and I'll add it here.

there's one in the glossary you can take:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/arm...ary/mazeas.jpg
__________________
My insignia database contributions
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-12-08, 01:15 PM
Dwayne H's Avatar
Dwayne H Dwayne H is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ottawa Ontario
Posts: 183
Default Perth Regiment M51

Mazeas shows left and right facing collars. Collars both face left for this pattern.

Dwayne
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-12-08, 02:26 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,422
Default

Guys thanks for all the input so far.
Mazeas is an excellent reference, and the basic bible for the king's crown era in Canadian badges. However, as we were working through the badge registry, some errors became apparent. Editing the catalogue makes sure that the reference is as accurate as possible.
Some good questions have been asked about cataloging the varieties of badges. David has asked an important question about the amount of detail for a catalogue.
The officers' badges are the most glaring example of omissions. Why Daniel Mazeas only included the handful he did was not explained. Most regiments did have officer's pattern badges. These should be listed.
Should significant differences in badge runs be listed? There was some discussion about the Irish Regiment varieties in the thread about DavidG's badge finds. The question about runs is differentiation and documentation. What exactly would constitute a difference? This would be somewhat arbitrary at some point.
It is certainly worth pursuing. The Canadian Badge Index is a major step towards this. Could it, and should it at some point be converted to a published reference? Digital?
Some information on a specific question. The Wellington Rifles were not the only unit to be granted "infantry of the line" status by becoming a regiment. The Algonquin Rifles were also granted the designation of "Regiment" in 1929. The Algonquin Rifles badges, blackened, were to have the blacking removed to reflect the new designation. There are M144 badges around that have had the blacking removed. If Mazeas included the two patterns of badges to represent the two different designations for the Wellington Regiment, the same should be done for the Algonquin Regiment.
Another numbering error. M131 represents both the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders and the Military School of Piping. The A & SH Military School of Piping should be numbered M131a.
David, my old eyes may be tricking me, but I can't find an S29. The officer's general list badge in my copy of Mazeas is numbered S28. There is no S29 that I can find. Should that become the or's general list badge?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-12-08, 07:45 PM
regimentalrogue regimentalrogue is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
there's one in the glossary you can take:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/arm...ary/mazeas.jpg
Mike, thank you.

I also managed to dig out of my files an old photocopy of the badge drawing to do my site update.

Mazeas depicts only one badge of The RCR, rather than the three major variants, that existed during his date range of 1920 to 1950. The hand-drawn version of the Guelphic crown badge is applicable for 1920-1927, but for the period after that, he should also present the early Imperial crown and the St Edward's crown patterns.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-12-08, 09:23 PM
Phillip Herring's Avatar
Phillip Herring Phillip Herring is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,264
Default

Reference the Irish Fusiliers
M21 is shown with the eagle facing the wrong direction.

I see that the debate about the coronet has appeared on this thread.
The following link will give the info that I previously posted.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...4&postcount=12

Phil
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 30-01-15, 01:11 PM
cdndragoon cdndragoon is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Petawawa, ON
Posts: 9
Default Correction to Mazeas pre-1914

on p28, it shows the RCD HP.41 with springbok collar dogs, dating them 1895.

Except that the event that prompted the RCD to adopt the springbok as their badge didn't occur until 1900 (during their Boer War deployment).

The version shown in Mazeas 1920-50 is more correct, dating the larger, 'cutthroat', collar dogs 1901-1904.

I've seen sellers make this error in marking their products, dating their springbok badges as pre-1900. Take note, all sellers, that any pre-1900 badges should be royal cypher only, with a mix of cypher and springbok until 1910!

Cheers!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 30-01-15, 02:39 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,422
Default

Hi cdndragoon, Thanks for that note. I think we may have discussed the "cutthroat" collars earlier? That pattern was not authorized until shortly before the war.
In a related question, you mention the use of the cypher as a cap badge but also as a shoulder badge? Or as a collar? Was there a collar pre-springbok? Finally, can the springbok collars with the R.C.D. scroll be confirmed?
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 30-01-15, 07:22 PM
John S. John S. is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 158
Default Mazeas corrections....

Bill:
I can confirm that the RCD collar, with letters "R.C.D." on the lower scroll do exist.
Bill Elms (old time Toronto badge collector) put together a photgraphic catalogue of his badge collection in the 1950`s-early 60`s; I have a copy of a copy of that record, and on plate 109 of the catalogue the collar in question is stated as being "1904 collar".
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
John S.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 30-01-15, 07:42 PM
Bill A's Avatar
Bill A Bill A is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 10,422
Default

Related question, is it possible that the RCD wore the royal cyphers in the same manner as the RCR prior to the adoption of the springbok badges? It is odd that there was not a pre-springbok collar badge, but that is what Mazeas seems to suggest. And, what badge did the RCD wear in South Africa? (Never thought about this until going through Mazeas in relation to these questions.)
__________________
Res ipsa loquitur
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:10 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.