British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum  

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Photographs of British Servicemen and Women Wearing Insignia

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-06-19, 02:13 PM
Postwarden's Avatar
Postwarden Postwarden is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Garden of England
Posts: 2,370
Default School of Musketry Senior NCO

A great portrait of what I believe to be a Quartermaster Sgt Instructor of the School. The medal looks like the early Long Service and Good Conduct.

Thoughts appreciated.

Jon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg School of Musketry QMSI JM_edited-1.jpg (49.0 KB, 83 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-06-19, 02:27 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 4,789
Default

Jon,

Agreed on all points.
Interestingly he will be wearing another set of KC over crossed rifles on each shoulder strap. Seen it in several other School of Musketry NCO photos, so 6 KC over crossed rifles in total!!, and could of course have more if he had any prize badges on the lower left arm.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-06-19, 05:23 PM
Mercian's Avatar
Mercian Mercian is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 421
Default

I have just seen this on the Cheshire Regiment Museum site, quite interesting.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot_2019-06-12-18-14-40-1.jpg (72.4 KB, 67 views)
File Type: jpg Screenshot_2019-06-12-18-15-53-1.jpg (68.8 KB, 49 views)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-06-19, 05:25 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 4,789
Default

George,

Just goes to show anything is possible with badges and dates and rules dont mean too much. Superb.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-06-19, 05:42 PM
grumpy grumpy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,175
Default

Very interesting.
Is the WW II identification as QMSI because that is his known appointment?

I ask because when, in 1938, the new rank of WO III was authorised, all existing WO II, whatever their appointment, had to change to the 1919 RQMS crown/wreath Until the final abandonment of WOIII [1947 from memory] the RQMS was indistinguishable from a CSM [as indeed he had been from May 1915 to September 1918]

So I believe that the man in the photo might be a CSM Instructor or any other appointment open to a WO II ....... and this of course includes RQMS Instructor if such an appointment existed in the unit.

I would add that I have no detailed knowledge of School of Musketry or Small Arms School infrastructure.

Standing by to be educated.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 13-06-19, 12:10 AM
kingsley kingsley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 602
Default

Does anyone have a closeup photo of the collar badges worn by the QMS?
Never seen them. I have a photo in my files somewhere of the crossed rifles and crown hat badge worn in Australia by S of M instructors.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 14-06-19, 07:53 AM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,592
Default

I think it is a really superb photograph, the golden age, before the world went mad, excellent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Postwarden View Post
A great portrait of what I believe to be a Quartermaster Sgt Instructor of the School. The medal looks like the early Long Service and Good Conduct.

Thoughts appreciated.

Jon
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 14-06-19, 11:18 AM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
Very interesting.
Is the WW II identification as QMSI because that is his known appointment?

I ask because when, in 1938, the new rank of WO III was authorised, all existing WO II, whatever their appointment, had to change to the 1919 RQMS crown/wreath Until the final abandonment of WOIII [1947 from memory] the RQMS was indistinguishable from a CSM [as indeed he had been from May 1915 to September 1918]

So I believe that the man in the photo might be a CSM Instructor or any other appointment open to a WO II ....... and this of course includes RQMS Instructor if such an appointment existed in the unit.

I would add that I have no detailed knowledge of School of Musketry or Small Arms School infrastructure.

Standing by to be educated.
You are correct, Grumpy, that in WW2 the SASC appointment shown was CSMI, and for the precise reason that you have outlined. It was not until after WW2, once the WO3’s had all been phased out that the appointment reverted to QMSI.

Very interesting to see the MGC badges in use in that manner. The fact that they are above his badge of appointment implies their use as a skill at arms badge. I’m unsure when the order was given to cease wearing crossed rifles below the appointment badge, and at what point the practice was resurrected.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 14-06-19, 11:34 AM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsley View Post
Does anyone have a closeup photo of the collar badges worn by the QMS?
Never seen them. I have a photo in my files somewhere of the crossed rifles and crown hat badge worn in Australia by S of M instructors.
The enclosed group image shows all the patterns of collar badge used by the SofM. The pattern seen in the photo is at bottom right and was introduced around 1907-08. In the period prior the King’s crown was worn for a short time, when the corps was ordered to wear ‘Garrison Staff’ insignia, including the Royal cypher as cap badge, during King Edward VII’s reign, a practice that was highly unpopular. Before that the QV crown over crossed rifles with slings was worn.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg DC53F4DA-A54C-401B-96F4-334C15C3DA36.jpeg (32.6 KB, 30 views)

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 14-06-19 at 11:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 15-06-19, 01:16 AM
kingsley kingsley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 602
Default

Thanks for the collar badge images. I have never seen one of these and did not know they existed.
A few years ago there was an unusual crossed rifles badge on Ebay, presumably the large size.The rifles were undoubtedly Sniders, which put them well into the mid Victorian period. There may have been another with crossed Martinis as well but I did not keep copies in my files.
I have quite a few skill at arms badges but all cloth of various patterns, and thought the metal ones must have been for an instructor not for marksmanship?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 15-06-19, 08:39 AM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsley View Post
Thanks for the collar badge images. I have never seen one of these and did not know they existed.
A few years ago there was an unusual crossed rifles badge on Ebay, presumably the large size.The rifles were undoubtedly Sniders, which put them well into the mid Victorian period. There may have been another with crossed Martinis as well but I did not keep copies in my files.
I have quite a few skill at arms badges but all cloth of various patterns, and thought the metal ones must have been for an instructor not for marksmanship?
Metal badges replaced cloth ones in 1907, because the cost of wool soared whereas gilding metal (an alloy) was cheap. These were then used for SofM working dress, with bullion wire for full dress arm badges. The crossed rifles marking SofM appointments were worn below crowns but above stripes. The positioning of the MGC badge on the SASC CSMI shows it is a SAA badge rather than a corps badge, an important distinction.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 15-06-19, 12:06 PM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,592
Default

So this would refer solely to the Skill at Arms badges worn upon the sleeve?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Metal badges replaced cloth ones in 1907, because the cost of wool soared whereas gilding metal (an alloy) was cheap. These were then used for SofM working dress, with bullion wire for full dress arm badges. The crossed rifles marking SofM appointments were worn below crowns but above stripes. The positioning of the MGC badge on the SASC CSMI shows it is a SAA badge rather than a corps badge, an important distinction.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 15-06-19, 12:10 PM
Postwarden's Avatar
Postwarden Postwarden is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Garden of England
Posts: 2,370
Default

The battle dress shown from the Cheshire Regiment Museum is interesting as it sheds light on a small mystery I noted in my book Badges on Battle Dress.

In November 1955 the War Office Dress Committee authorised QMSIs (WOII), SSIs and Sergeant Instructors of the Small Arms School Corps to wear metal rank badges on battle dress - a crown in wreath for the QMSI, a small crown above the chevrons for the SSI - both worn with crossed brass rifles. As was often the case this was probably official authorisation for an existing practice.

The same meeting authorised the Corps to continue wearing the obsolete ‘Badges, Arm, Machine Gun, Crossed, Gunmetal’ until stocks were exhausted. No official record of this metal badge, presumably worn by the SASC’s MG instructors, has been found and is not recorded in Edwards and Langley. The BD shown has a crown above the crossed MGs but a photo I was alerted to which was reproduced in the July 2012 edition of Man at Arms; The Journal of the SASC shows WO2 (QMSI) Peter Clift, SASC serving with the MMG Division, School of Infantry Support Weapons Wing in 1958, wearing crossed brass machine guns under his brass rank badge.

Jon
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 16-06-19, 08:24 AM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Kelley View Post
So this would refer solely to the Skill at Arms badges worn upon the sleeve?
Yes. The last sentence above refers to the SASC CSMI. The preceding sentences to the SofM QMS at the beginning of the thread.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 16-06-19, 08:42 AM
Toby Purcell's Avatar
Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Completed colour service and retired
Posts: 2,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Postwarden View Post
The battle dress shown from the Cheshire Regiment Museum is interesting as it sheds light on a small mystery I noted in my book Badges on Battle Dress.

In November 1955 the War Office Dress Committee authorised QMSIs (WOII), SSIs and Sergeant Instructors of the Small Arms School Corps to wear metal rank badges on battle dress - a crown in wreath for the QMSI, a small crown above the chevrons for the SSI - both worn with crossed brass rifles. As was often the case this was probably official authorisation for an existing practice.

The same meeting authorised the Corps to continue wearing the obsolete ‘Badges, Arm, Machine Gun, Crossed, Gunmetal’ until stocks were exhausted. No official record of this metal badge, presumably worn by the SASC’s MG instructors, has been found and is not recorded in Edwards and Langley. The BD shown has a crown above the crossed MGs but a photo I was alerted to which was reproduced in the July 2012 edition of Man at Arms; The Journal of the SASC shows WO2 (QMSI) Peter Clift, SASC serving with the MMG Division, School of Infantry Support Weapons Wing in 1958, wearing crossed brass machine guns under his brass rank badge.

Jon
That is very interesting, Jon, and the knowledge of it is probably lost at what passes for the SASC Museum at Warminster. All that you have reported makes sense, as there was for many years a sense of independence among the instructors based at Netheravon’s medium machine gun Division at the Support Weapons Wing (there were also ‘medium mortar’ and ‘infantry anti-tank’ divisions).

The reason was partly geographical because the Small Arms Wing was at that time still far away at Hythe, in Kent, but mainly historical, in that before 1926 the last vestiges of the MGC, the independent Machine Gun School (formerly at Seaford), still existed at Netheravon (and still wore MG insignia) some 4-years after the MGC itself had been disbanded. It was in that year that the two schools merged to form the Small Arms School Corps, but not until 3-years later, in 1929 that a new cap badge was accepted that merged the emblems of the two schools, crossed rifles and tripod mounted MMG. At the same time the schools colours, red and blue for Netheravon and green and yellow for Hythe, were also merged to become the colours of the SASC.

The geographical separation remained however, and it was not until Hythe closed and the Small Arms Wing moved to Warminster that concerted efforts were made to bring the staff of the two wings more closely together in a sense of cross-fertilisation, a process that most felt was never 100% successful.

Whilst the MMG Division was at Netheravon, the instructors of the Small Arms School Corps who specialised in machine gun and mortar instruction, as opposed to the rifle and light machine gun that was taught at Hythe, were permitted to wear crossed machine guns as part of their rank insignia. This was instead of the crossed rifles worn by Hythe instructors.
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 5543CE32-F70C-4F41-8632-4262ABCF1CBA.jpeg (49.7 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg E1EFE6A8-2085-44C0-A785-66D464ED9000.jpg (49.6 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 16-06-19 at 10:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:42 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.