British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum  

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Cavalry, Yeomanry, Tank/RAC Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-06-19, 07:18 PM
dubaiguy's Avatar
dubaiguy dubaiguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 509
Default The Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry KK1411

I picked up this badge recently with some other yeomanry badges. I had no idea what it was so put it aside as a possible collar for further research. However, on looking though the Yeomanry chapter in K&K for something else entirely, I had a double take when I spotted it shown as Fig1411 The Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry.

K&K's description is: 'A bugle horn strung. For officers in gilt (Fig 1411). Also in bronze'.

Mine is gilding metal with short lugs. So my questions are:
- was it ever worn by OR's as a cap badge?
- or is it indeed an OR's collar and officer's wore exactly the same collar design in gilt and bronze in their headdress?

Thanks
Mark
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_7517.jpg (33.3 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_7516.jpg (33.5 KB, 29 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-06-19, 07:23 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 4,789
Default

Hello,

I dont believe its a SRY badge.

The generic bugle horn badge has been around for a long time and was widely adopted by the 1859 raised rifle volunteers and worn on shako's, caps, pouches etc.

It was later worn as a collar by many rifle regiments also.

Yours looks brass and therefore probably Victorian, but pinning it down to one particular regiment is probably impossible.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-06-19, 03:42 PM
leigh kitchen's Avatar
leigh kitchen leigh kitchen is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 4,700
Default

Not quite the same but a similar little badge on a Torin (I haven't identified the unit, presumably KRRC or a Rifles Volunteer unit).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20170915_075003.jpg (49.9 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20170915_074648.jpg (60.6 KB, 9 views)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-06-19, 08:20 PM
dubaiguy's Avatar
dubaiguy dubaiguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 509
Default

Thanks gents for the replies. A ubiquitous little badge then worn on many different items. Generic and promiscuous!!

As it is exactly the striking shown in K&K as Fig. 1411, (albeit in brass not gilt), I wonder if their identification is another anomaly.
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-06-19, 01:43 PM
NewCollector NewCollector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 72
Default

It is not a generic bugle. Generic bugles - Pattern 9299 from 1873 - c.1881, and the succeeding Pattern 10011 with its almost identical renewals from 1882 to today - are quite different in their details to your badge.

According to Churchill 1617 it may be a DLI or Sherwood Rangers collar. The DLI ones are 28mm high, the Sherwood Rangers slightly larger at 30mm.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-06-19, 02:29 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 4,789
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewCollector View Post
It is not a generic bugle. Generic bugles - Pattern 9299 from 1873 - c.1881, and the succeeding Pattern 10011 with its almost identical renewals from 1882 to today - are quite different in their details to your badge.

According to Churchill 1617 it may be a DLI or Sherwood Rangers collar. The DLI ones are 28mm high, the Sherwood Rangers slightly larger at 30mm.
Thats just not correct.

'Generic' = not specific, and thats just what many types of strung bugles were.

Used by many regiments, Corps and Battalions both on collars, caps and other items of equipment.

The headress shown above illustrates that fact precisely.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-06-19, 02:44 PM
NewCollector NewCollector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 72
Default

I disagree Simon - I haven't seen any evidence that this badge was worn other than as Churchill states. Of course there are some mistakes in Churchill, Westlake, and K&Ki If you think Churchill is incorrect please say why - according to him this is an SRY or DLI collar. I'm sure that like me you have a well-thumbed copy.

As a collector of Light Infantry and related badges I would be most grateful to know what your references are for this badge being worn elsewhere. You never stop learning.

Best

David
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-06-19, 03:03 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 4,789
Default

David,

As I said these badges were worn on collars, caps and other items of equipment and Churchill deals only with collars.

The Torin cap in this thread is a prime example of a similar badge worn on head dress.

Churchill is a superb book but doesnt and couldnt include ALL the various badges worn by the 1859 - 1888 ish Volunteer Rifle Corps in the UK.

Having collected early Volunteer items and handled lots of uniform items, these various bugle horns appear with regularity in WM, silver, BB and brass, that you wont find recorded in any books. The VRC changed their uniforms as often as there CO's.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-06-19, 03:16 PM
NewCollector NewCollector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 72
Default

Thanks Simon

I'll bow out to your superior knowledge but it seems rather obtuse to ignore the fact that this specific badge is cited by Churchill as an SRY or DLI collar - unless you have specific knowledge that he is wrong.

All my volunteer generic bugles are ribboned but have the tassels suspended on cords (like Leigh's Torin badge) whereas Dubai Guy's badge had the tassels suspended on ribbons.

So again if you have examples of this specific badge being used elsewhere I would be very grateful if you would share that information. I currently know of no other examples of this design in use other than by the DLI and SRY which does not make it generic (i.e. not attributable to a specific unit).

Best

David
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-06-19, 03:22 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 4,789
Default

David,

If I am obtuse I fear you are more so to keep ignoring the facts that:-

"these badges were worn on collars, caps and other items of equipment and Churchill deals only with collars".

Clearly a generic badge would be worn by many units, and the 2 "Collars" you quote clearly fall into that category, thats why they are 'generic' ie - not specific, because many used them.

I cannot provide written or visual evidence of the things I have seen and handled over the last 50 years unfortunately, so no I cant provide you with evidence.

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 13-06-19, 10:41 AM
NewCollector NewCollector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 72
Default

Sorry Simon but if all you can provide is a strongly held opinion rather than factual evidence from primary sources I'll stick with Churchill.

Not all bugle badges are the same and although many are generic and completely unattributable to particular units, some designs are. Is a badge of this construction pre-1888, and wouldn't most generic RVC/VRC bugle badges be in white metal or blackened?

If anyone can show an example of the exact design and size of this badge in the same material being used other than by DLI or SRY than this one is obviously generic as well. With so much knowledge on this site there must be one of us who can, either from an actual badge or an image published by the MHS.

Best

David
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 13-06-19, 11:52 AM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 4,789
Default

I give up
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 13-06-19, 01:34 PM
NewCollector NewCollector is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 72
Default

I already have!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 13-06-19, 06:51 PM
GriffMJ's Avatar
GriffMJ GriffMJ is offline
LYPAO Boff
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Caerlŷr, yn Lloegr.
Posts: 5,710
Default

ORs SRY Cap and collar from a WW1 period Dress uniform.

I have shown a compare with the SRY Collar.... looks good to me..... probably a different maker.

* Mark ...... its a collar badge.... the loops have been stretched..... they should be a --D shape.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CollarWW1.jpg (44.2 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg CapWW1.jpg (37.8 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg CollarCompareWW1.jpg (45.9 KB, 16 views)
__________________
Cofion gorau
Gruffydd M-J
www.paoyeomanry.co.uk

"A Yeoman from the Stalwart Rural Cavalry"
Lechyd da pob Cymro

Last edited by GriffMJ; 13-06-19 at 08:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 14-06-19, 05:27 PM
dubaiguy's Avatar
dubaiguy dubaiguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 509
Default

Thank you to everyone that provided an opinion. Very informative and I'm pleased I now have a positive ID.
Mark
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:13 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.