21st Lancers

[Kerr Sprott]

Hi, I've had this badge for some time but have been unsuccessful in getting an answer to its use. The work around the crown suggests that it has been re-crowned perhaps as an arm badge or a pouch badge. I wonder if anyone could shed some light on this?
Many thanks in advance

[Bill A]

Hello Kerr Sprott, welcome to the Forum. Your account is active and open for posts.

[cbuehler]

It looks to be a bit of a Frankenstein to me. The crown has been reattached, but looks to have been cobbled from another fake badge. The crown is misshapen an the reverse shows a very muddy strike.
The cypher does not look right either with those spade feet to the lugs.
I admit I could be wrong on all this, but I am sure others will chime in.

CB

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Kerr Sprott

Hi, I've had this badge for some time but have been unsuccessful in getting an answer to its use. The work around the crown suggests that it has been re-crowned perhaps as an arm badge or a pouch badge. I wonder if anyone could shed some light on this?
Many thanks in advance

It is supposed to be a post 1902 NCOs Arm Badge for 21st (Empress of India’s) Lancers. Whether it is genuine and not a copy I do not know, but it is of the pattern provided by the Ordnance Supply Chain between 1902 and the merger of the regiment with the 17th in 1922. Below are images of the previous, Queen Victoria’s reign pattern for you to compare. Note the copper loops / lugs.

[Kerr Sprott]

Many thanks for your responses

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Kerr Sprott

Many thanks for your responses

Glad to help. Here is another King’s crown version to compare with yours. The badge itself (essentially QV’s imperial cypher) was also fitted to the officers sabretache.

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

It is supposed to be a post 1902 NCOs Arm Badge for 21st (Empress of India’s) Lancers. Whether it is genuine and not a copy I do not know, but it is of the pattern provided by the Ordnance Supply Chain between 1902 and the merger of the regiment with the 17th in 1922. Below are images of the previous, Queen Victoria’s reign pattern for you to compare. Note the copper loops / lugs.

Hi Toby
This is an old chestnut, these badges turn up from time to time, what is more alarming sometimes in batches!

My first encounter was back in 2003 one was listed in 'Harvey's list'. Its never sat right with me or other collectors I know, as there has not been found to date any evidence to support its validity.

However, you say' its of the pattern provided by ordnance' 1902 to 1922.

I would be very interested to learn what supportive references you have to make such a statement?

Rob

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Robthereiver

Hi Toby
This is an old chestnut, these badges turn up from time to time, what is more alarming sometimes in batches!

My first encounter was back in 2003 one was listed in 'Harvey's list'. Its never sat right with me or other collectors I know, as there has not been found to date any evidence to support its validity.

However, you say' its of the pattern provided by ordnance' 1902 to 1922.

I would be very interested to learn what supportive references you have to make such a statement?

Rob

Rob you’re quite right to query things that are unclear and I will research this and report back. Not all of the line cavalry favoured arm badges and certainly not all of the Lancer regiments, so you’re scepticism is justified. Offhand I think that I read the details you quoted fairly recently in a Bonhams catalogue online, but I have a good library so I’ll check through and see what I can find. Wait…out.

[Toby Purcell]

No badge appears for 21st Lancers in the Clothing Regulations for 1894 and the only badge for Lancers at that point was the Motto ‘Or Glory’ for 17th Lancers. Page 139 - Distinguishing Badges and Chevrons - refers.

In the 1914 Dress Regulations page 121 of Table IX all the extant cavalry arm badges are listed and against 21st Lancers (Sic) it reads ‘Imperial Cypher and Crown’. Badges are to last 12 years and are made of Sterling Silver. They are not to be worn by warrant officers. The implication is that the badge had already been in use for some years.

The information in the photos below comes from the book: Cavalry Warrant Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers Arm Badges by David Linaker and Gordon Dine, which I can recommend.

I hope that you are now content. The badge existed but as with so many I’m sure that there must be some restrikes/reproductions around.

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

No badge appears for 21st Lancers in the Clothing Regulations for 1894 and the only badge for Lancers at that point was the Motto ‘Or Glory’ for 17th Lancers. Page 139 - Distinguishing Badges and Chevrons - refers.

In the 1914 Dress Regulations page 121 of Table IX all the extant cavalry arm badges are listed and against 21st Lancers (Sic) it reads ‘Imperial Cypher and Crown’. Badges are to last 12 years and are made of Sterling Silver. They are not to be worn by warrant officers. The implication is that the badge had already been in use for some years.

The information in the photos below comes from the book: Cavalry Warrant Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers Arm Badges by David Linaker and Gordon Dine, which I can recommend.

I hope that you are now content. The badge existed but as with so many I’m sure that there must be some restrikes/reproductions around.

Good Morning.

Sorry to say I can make no sense of your reply.

I was only interested in what your reference was for your statement that KC/Tudor Crown versions of the 21L NCO Arm Badge, were the pattern issued by Ordnance 1902 to 1922. Which you advised you read in an Auction Catalogue, not a source I'd rely on I have to say, auctioneer errors are common.

Moving on, no mention of a 21L Badge in the 1894 CR's.....well no surprise there, the 21st Lancers didn't come into being until 1897.

With regards to 1914 DR,s the 21L Arm Badge has always been described from its introduction in docs relating to it as an 'imperial Cypher and Crown'. A poor/vague description I must say, open to misinterpretation IMO.

I am familiar with the L&D publication, and indeed I was well acquainted with both the authors. The section 44 on the 21st Lancers (Empress of India's) you have posted is very good.

However, it does not contain any reference to a 21L Arm badge of an Imperial Cypher surmounted by a KC/Tudor Crown as posted by Kerr Sprott(KS).

The 21L Arm Badge design has remain the same from the day it was sealed,
Queen Victoria's Imperial Cypher surmounted by an Imperial Crown, the crown was at the Regiments insistence, and there have been no amendments. see L&D page 141. 44.1 - 21L.

Furthermore, there is quite a volume of photographic evidence to support the
continuity of wear from c.1902 to 1922.

I have to say I agree with CB the badge posted by KS is very poor quality, not to Cavalry standards that's for sure, I suspect its spurious/a fantasy badge.

I remain open minded though, as Peter Seamans book on Cav. Arm Badges, does mention the existence a KC Pouch Badge for the Other Ranks Pouch, the same size as the arm badge, but in Gilding metal not white metal as the KS one appears to be.

I have no idea where an example of the OR's Pouch badge could be found but the Royal Lancer museum might be a start.

Lastly, its worth perhaps bearing mind that because there is a change of monarch from Queen to King or vice-versa it does not necessarily mean a change of Crown to all insignia as one might assume. There are Regiments that have persisted in the wear of KC Cap Badge such as the 8th Kings royal irish Hussars and the current Light Dragoons still/or did wear KC embroidered Arm Badges.
So the 21st retaining their 'Imperial crown' is not so surprising they were the 'Empress of India's' the arm badge was a commemoration of their services in the Sudan and actually keeping it could be seen as maintaining the 'golden thread' of the Regiment.

Rob

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Robthereiver

Good Morning.

Sorry to say I can make no sense of your reply.

I was only interested in what your reference was for your statement that KC/Tudor Crown versions of the 21L NCO Arm Badge, were the pattern issued by Ordnance 1902 to 1922. Which you advised you read in an Auction Catalogue, not a source I'd rely on I have to say, auctioneer errors are common.

Moving on, no mention of a 21L Badge in the 1894 CR's.....well no surprise there, the 21st Lancers didn't come into being until 1897.

With regards to 1914 DR,s the 21L Arm Badge has always been described from its introduction in docs relating to it as an 'imperial Cypher and Crown'. A poor/vague description I must say, open to misinterpretation IMO.

I am familiar with the L&D publication, and indeed I was well acquainted with both the authors. The section 44 on the 21st Lancers (Empress of India's) you have posted is very good.

However, it does not contain any reference to a 21L Arm badge of an Imperial Cypher surmounted by a KC/Tudor Crown as posted by Kerr Sprott(KS).

The 21L Arm Badge design has remain the same from the day it was sealed,
Queen Victoria's Imperial Cypher surmounted by an Imperial Crown, the crown was at the Regiments insistence, and there have been no amendments. see L&D page 141. 44.1 - 21L.

Furthermore, there is quite a volume of photographic evidence to support the
continuity of wear from c.1902 to 1922.

I have to say I agree with CB the badge posted by KS is very poor quality, not to Cavalry standards that's for sure, I suspect its spurious/a fantasy badge.

I remain open minded though, as Peter Seamans book on Cav. Arm Badges, does mention the existence a KC Pouch Badge for the Other Ranks Pouch, the same size as the arm badge, but in Gilding metal not white metal as the KS one appears to be.

I have no idea where an example of the OR's Pouch badge could be found but the Royal Lancer museum might be a start.

Lastly, its worth perhaps bearing mind that because there is a change of monarch from Queen to King or vice-versa it does not necessarily mean a change of Crown to all insignia as one might assume. There are Regiments that have persisted in the wear of KC Cap Badge such as the 8th Kings royal irish Hussars and the current Light Dragoons still/or did wear KC embroidered Arm Badges.
So the 21st retaining their 'Imperial crown' is not so surprising they were the 'Empress of India's' the arm badge was a commemoration of their services in the Sudan and actually keeping it could be seen as maintaining the 'golden thread' of the Regiment.

Rob

Thank you for your reply Rob, I can see now that i misinterpreted your original query. You raise some very good points. I do not see this as some sort of combative dialogue, and am entirely content to learn new things and have mistakes pointed out.

I was aware of the history of 21st Lancers, its previous existence until quite late as Hussars, and the charge at Omdurman linking with Queen Victoria and subsequent association with her and her insignia.

You’re quite right about the importance of her Crown, and the regiment’s pride in and attachment to her cypher. Not only was the cypher the arm badge of course, but as you will know it appeared on the various designs of cap badge that the regiment used over a relatively short span of time, but it also appeared on the shoulder strap of the men’s tunics, something quite unique.

I think you’re right that the issued sterling silver arm badge always took that same exact form for the fairly short time it existed. The details in the Linaker and Dine book suggested widespread issue from 1902 and as each badge was to last 12-years the second tranche of badges had not completed its lifecycle when the regiment was amalgamated, so only a few genuine badges could have ever existed. On reflection then it seems unlikely that any arm badges with a different crown were issued.

The term Imperial Cypher can be confusing in that there was more than one. Queen Victoria’s was the first but the King’s that followed her also had an Imperial Cypher once they were elevated to Emperor. There is of course the first VRI surmounted by Queen Victoria’s crown that was apparently a stylised representation of St Edward’s Crown and the King’s that came after her all used the Tudor Crown. These latter once positioned over ERI or GRI also became Imperial Cyphers.

Although the 21st Lancers fought to keep their VRI emblem they did have their button, cap, collar and sabretache badge changed to reflect the Tudor crown of Edward VII, which left a slightly hybrid arrangement with the old Queen’s cypher, but the new King’s Crown. As regards the larger badge in the same style as the arm badge, but with Tudor crown, it seems to me a stretch to suggest it’s completely spurious and I prefer the suggestion that it might be a pouch badge of sorts, perhaps even for the regimental bandsmen’s music case (aka pouch), but these are normally seen with screw posts. As a longer shot perhaps it was a specimen die for an arm badge proposed, but never adopted, which chimes with the loops for fitting. One can imagine it sold off as so many dies were and subsequently used to sell insignia in the civilian market.

As a closing thought, it does seem odd to go to the extent of changing every other piece of regimental insignia to specifically have a Tudor crown over Queen Victoria’s cypher, and not do the same with the arm badge.

[Frank Kelley]

That is not an example that I would be happy to be original.

Originally Posted by Kerr Sprott

Hi, I've had this badge for some time but have been unsuccessful in getting an answer to its use. The work around the crown suggests that it has been re-crowned perhaps as an arm badge or a pouch badge. I wonder if anyone could shed some light on this?
Many thanks in advance

[mac mcconnell]

some items did change others did not. Officers seem to have updated their czapka plates to kings crown . The other ranks did not.
I do have an Officers Kings Crown Pouch Badge on a pouch. In Gilt. I think your Armbadge is a copy from these made for the collectors market.
The 21st were very proud of their Cypher and i know from back in my day in the Regiment . Badges did not get changed .with out a massive amount of paperwork and messing about.
Theres a big cost as well as everyone L/cpl and above wore the Cypher in the 21st.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by mac mcconnell

some items did change others did not. Officers seem to have updated their czapka plates to kings crown . The other ranks did not.
I do have an Officers Kings Crown Pouch Badge on a pouch. In Gilt. I think your Armbadge is a copy from these made for the collectors market.
The 21st were very proud of their Cypher and i know from back in my day in the Regiment . Badges did not get changed .with out a massive amount of paperwork and messing about.
Theres a big cost as well as everyone L/cpl and above wore the Cypher in the 21st.

I do recall reading from a regimental history that the 21st Lancers had initially been stood down as a regiment in its entirety and had returned from overseas duty to a station in Britain (possibly their depot) to disband.

Apparently whilst that process was quite well underway the decision was made by the War Office to merge regiments rather than disband. At that point a full squadron of regimental personnel who still had colour service to complete were, instead of dispersing individually to other regiments as had originally been planned, ordered to embark to join with the 17th (DCO) Lancers overseas.

On arrival and in common with all the other line cavalry regiments ordered to merge, the single squadron from the junior regiment forming a joked about ‘vulgar fraction’ with its senior partner, continued to wear its original parent regiment insignia for some months before new badges were agreed.

It initially occurred to me that the arm badges with Tudor crowns might have originated from that short period, with others copied subsequently for the collectors market.

Two aspects hint at this as a very slight possibility, the loops fixture, as opposed to a screw post for a pouch, and more importantly the strengthening wire on the rear where the crown joins the cypher, which appears on some badges of both crown patterns, as mentioned in the Linaker and Dine book. However, this relates only to the non sterling silver badges that were presumably for junior NCOs only. It would have meant both patterns of arm badge being worn simultaneously, but in very small numbers, which doesn’t seem completely impossible. All mere conjecture of course.