A Badge Collector and His Money Are Easily Parted!

[Advsmt]

I have a dilemma, and it revolves around my love affair with Scottish Victorian badges. I am not really a badge collector, it is purely badges that have family connection that interest me and unfortunately that is almost entirely Scottish and covers almost every regiment and county. Life was easy when I started with the Great War period, I could, I believe, be about 95-100% sure the badges were genuine through simple research, the forum and handling badges. But Scottish Victorian badges - Militia, regulars and Volunteer badges are known to be heavily faked and they are expensive and collected by people with deep pockets. Take, say, a 42nd Sphinx O/Rs bonnet badge. I could get one from a dealer - at any one time there must be at least 6 available, and I mean reputable and highly thought of dealers. Now the prices range from just over £100 to £300 pounds for basically the same badge. The major reference books are almost a waste of time because the detail and pictures are poor and variations are not really covered. I could buy from auction and hopefully get one from a well known collection - add another £200 to the price. Or I could buy a fake off eBay for £13. So do I part with £200 on a badge that I cannot verify is genuine? and it seems is almost impossible to do so? I cannot believe the volume of these "rare" badges that regularly turn up, some look like they have never seen any wear at all and yet are purported to be 100% genuine. And it seems like the dealer phrase "the badge has been relugged" is a bit of estate agent talk that takes away a big element of deciding on whether the badge is genuine. So as I lie awake at night thinking of an "OK" looking 72nd bonnet badge at £200 hoping to convince myself that it does look identical to K&K am I the proverbial fool that is easily parted with his money? That outright £13 fake, which actually looks remarkably close to the £200 dealer badge, is beginning to look like the sane option?

Bryan

[Alan O]

Bryan,

I fear the only answer is to give up chasing the holy grail and switch to modern Scottish badges which are:

a. More reasonably priced.
b. Less faked.
c. Readily available so you can have regular pleasure of adding a new items.

Unfortunately as with pre Territorial glengarry badges, the fakes are so old and so entrenched that even the so-called expert dealers pass off old restrikes as genuine. As you say the volume of 'genuine' BW bonnet badges readily available does suggest that they are most/all are fakes.

I still add to my OTC collection as the number of OTC badges that have been faked are few (less than 15) compared to the amount of varieties that are out there.

Alan

[Peter Brydon]

Only my own personal opinion but I think if you add an item you are not entirely happy with to a collection you have spent some time and trouble building up , it may well detract from the pleasure you get from the collection.

I had a very well made copy of a Liverpool Irish officers helmet plate for some time but could never bring myself to put it in a fame with genuine items and in the end I sold it ( saying it was a copy in the listing )

Of course at the end of the day what and how you collect is very personal and if you are happy with your collection no matter what it comprises, that is all that matters.

P.B.

[Cribyn]

Hello Bryan

You asked "am I the proverbial fool that is easily parted with his money?" - in my view no, you are not. You are a genuine collector who is just in danger of being ripped off by the producers of fakes (and everyone on here seems to admit that they are getting better and better) or by some dealers who should know better.

I have often seen the comment on this Forum that "a fool and his money are soon parted" but I don't think that applies in most cases. Fakes are so good now that they are fooling the experts (never mind newcomers to the hobby) and probably have been doing so for years now - look at some of the disagreements that have taken place on this Forum

One thing I would suggest though, is don't buy fakes. This only adds to the problem and puts money into the pockets of the fakers encouraging them to produce and sell yet more fakes! Much better, in my view, to have one good badge, bought from a reputable dealer, than have a dozen fakes.

Regards
Roger

[billy]

In all honesty if you like the look of a Copy and buying as such, you can enjoy it for what it is a tactile item and not a picture, if a real item turns up so much the better but keep the real seperate from the copies label as such and enjoy them, there isn't much joy looking at a £200 + badge and thinking the worst! It dulls the hobby.
I picked up a collection years ago and there where 40 or so V.T.C. badges to WW1, of which one I saw in Stratford Militaria Fair going for £600 no way was I going to be able to acquire that! I keep these to one side knowing they are £3 badges, if even that but better than a picture in a book!
Wish you well Scottish badges are beautifully made, and truly a field of collecting in its own! Good luck at some point maybe you can post some pictures? All the best billy

[billy]

Hi Roger "Cribyn" I agree with what you say, and though I hate them copies sold as genuine I think there is a place for them BUT with Copy stamped onto the rear, I wouldn't go out specifically to buy one but those I find in lots I have bought I give away to youngsters or like these VTC one's keep as I compare to real badges? But also somtimes you get a badge which is different, put onto the Forum and later it has as many bads as there are goods?
Similarily Officers collars I love the collars as easier to wear (mount) than the pronged /bladed badges beautifully made and a fraction on cost, but more practical if I put myself in someones shoes for that era!
Nice thing about this hobby, it has many paths! "Restrikes I hate"

[Cribyn]

Hello Billy

The problem is that not many people sell fake badges marked up as 'COPY' and so they are being passed on from one person to the next and may eventually be sold on as originals for horrendous sums.

Obviously it is all a matter of personal preference but what I find odd is that so many people complain about fake badges but so many people are content to buy them as 'gap fillers' or what have you. All this is doing is playing right into the hands of those people making and selling fakes. Ultimately all honest collectors are all going to lose out.

Easy for me to say, I know, because I don't collect badges but military buttons. However, even these are now becoming the subject of 'copy' buttons produced with all good intentions for re-enactors perhaps but inevitably being sold on as originals to the unwary. They are very good copies too and I have never yet seen one marked as "COPY", so it is definitely not a question of "a fool and his money are soon parted".

Roger

[billy]

Roger the only badges I have seen marked "Copy"is for the Ghurkars, no others and agree with everything you have said and think it is too long gone to change now even if a law where to pass tomorrow there are too many out there already!

[Cribyn]

Hi Billy

I suspect you are quite right, it is too late now to stop the rot. The damage has already been done and nothing will put things right. As you say, there are far too many fakes out there already.

Roger

[Advsmt]

Many thanks for the replies , always good to get a fresh perspective and keep things in perspective! I think, even though I am rapidly approaching 60 I am very much from the Internet generation where everything is on show and available. So on-line family service records have drawn me into relatives who have served in the 42nd, 72nd, 78th , 92nd and 93rd so the draw of the badges is almost irresistible! I fully understand your point Peter, I have not knowingly bought an expensive fake but it keeps nagging at me that the badges "maybe" fakes because as Alan points out they are very rare, and the only answer maybe to avoid these "holy grails". As I look at my Victorian badges they are universally of exceptional quality, far surpassing that of newer vintage. So they are very, very convincing - it is the doubt, the lack of incontrovertible evidence that troubles me. So like you Peter I look at my frame and think - am I happy with that? Again, as Alan points out, if my badges are fakes they are very old fakes and who actually can tell what they are? Peter, if I knew one was a fake as you had, then I would be a happy man it is the uncertainty of these badges that is frustrating!
The worst part is I don't think I wil be able to stop!

Bryan

[manchesters]

Bryan,

Just provide a link to any badges you are considering to buy and I and others will be able to tell you what you need to know.

regards

[Arnhemjim]

Hello Bryan,
You have my complete sympathy regarding the present circumstances regarding Scottish Victorian cap badges. Being a fellow Scot (Clan Gordon) by ancestry, my best personal recommendation is to conduct a cost/effectiveness study based upon your personal financial means. Reconcile your expectations and enjoy the fact that you have made the best set of possible compromises based on your own circumstances. Admittedly that sounds rather abstract, so let me offer you a tangible personal experience. This is an article from my blog page; http://arnhemjim.blogspot.com/2014/1...cers-full.html .

Given your obvious already established personal knowledge base, you may have already seen one or more of the following, and/or equivalent information from other sources:

http://arnhemjim.blogspot.com/2011/0...x-company.html

http://arnhemjim.blogspot.com/2011/1...nology-in.html

http://arnhemjim.blogspot.com/2013/0...volunteer.html

All of this I’m sure offers only limited solace, but rest assured you’re not along in the quest.

Slàinte Mhòr! (Gaelic for “Great Good Health!”)
Jim Gordon
Arizona Territory

[Advsmt]

Thanks Jim, actually we have been in contact about this very subject. I have read your blogs and they formed and shaped my understanding of the subject. Plus wise words, I am fortunate that I do have money to spent on a pastime I really enjoy and on the whole have a degree of confidence in making buying decisions - mainly through the unstinting and gracious support of fellow members, more often though without them ever having first hand knowledge of their help; like your blogs, personal albums and old threads.
I think it is that Scots background that pains me to think that I could be parting with money on something that is fake! But as you say, if I have done everything to minimise making an error then I can just clear the grandchildren away, get my friends out - K&K, Bloomer and Talisker and enjoy look, feel and wallow in the history.

Bryan

[Advsmt]

well I thought I had better try a couple of badges that I have. Unfortunately I can't show the backs at the moment as they are now in a frame and I had taken these photos previously. Looked at the obvious ebay fakes and these are very crisp strikes, including the back from what I remember. Brass loops with the Albany having open ones similar to a HPC and a reasonably well defined orb which I believe is a good sign? They look good but are they old fakes?

[manchesters]

I am afraid they all look to be from the same source and not old at all.

We really need to see the backs to be sure but IMHO the outlook is not good.

regards