Manchester badge

[Jibba Jabba]

Could someone please explain the significance of lugs on a Manchester regt badge, I always thought they should have a slider?

Also can someone please confirm the exact style of lug as used on Manchester Pals shoulder titles, namely the 24th Battalion.

I own such a title and my example has canadian style lugs made from cut copper plate. I am wondering if these are correct?

Thank you.

[Luke H]

All cap badges were lugged prior to circa 1906 when sliders are generally considered to have started to come in. The slider then became the standard method of attachment for most badges. Such badges that were later slidered usually have their early lugged versions referred to as 'victorian' badges by dealers although this isn't strictly accurate but it gives them an excues to jack the price up.

Notwithstanding that some badges were always lugged such as Royal Scots Fusiliers, pugree examples of certain badges aside.

[KLR]

Lugs - or loops to give them their official name - were used on badges made for the FSC until 1903. They gave way to long sliders (ie those seen on HPCs) - or 'vertical shanks to give them their official name -used on badges for wear in the new (but unpopular) Brodrick cap. In 1906 they were ordered to be shortened as they were too long for the new peaked service dress caps.

BUT , apart from Scots etc badges that Luke mentions, loops were still on badges worn on the FSC which continued to be worn in India long after 1903 - in fact they made a come back for home troops in the 1930s (ie the FSC and loops often on TA badges of that period).

(all in the ACD records at Kew)

(Luke, I've been interested in what I've read here of the Manch Pals badges. Can you remind me what Bns of the Manch Rgt they were and when they were formed. I'll see what the ACD has to say about their badges)

[Luke H]

1st Manchester Pals (16th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
2nd Manchester Pals (17th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
3rd Manchester Pals (Clerks' and Warehousemen's Battalion) (18th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
4th Manchester Pals (19th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
5th Manchester Pals (20th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
6th Manchester Pals (21st Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
7th Manchester Pals (22nd Battalion, Manchester Regiment)

http://www.1914-1918.net/mancs.htm gives information on battalion formation dates, subsequent divisional placements and fates.

Luke

[Jibba Jabba]

Thank you for the information gentleman. I was getting worried after examining a forum members web site on the subject of badges of the manchester regiment in regards to the fact that he only appears to have one example in his huge collection which is lugged.

[harribobs]

Originally Posted by Luke Halls

1st Manchester Pals (16th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
2nd Manchester Pals (17th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
3rd Manchester Pals (Clerks' and Warehousemen's Battalion) (18th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
4th Manchester Pals (19th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
5th Manchester Pals (20th Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
6th Manchester Pals (21st Battalion, Manchester Regiment)
7th Manchester Pals (22nd Battalion, Manchester Regiment)

http://www.1914-1918.net/mancs.htm gives information on battalion formation dates, subsequent divisional placements and fates.

Luke

Luke

you have omitted the 8th City Battalion (to give them the correct name) which was the 23rd Battalion MR and the 24th Battalion MR the Oldham Comrades

the 3rd city bttn wasn't really the Clerks' and Warehousemen's Battalion, The clerks and warehousemen comment appeared in a newspaper advert to start the recruiting drive



none of the pals battn are refered to as such

going back to the original question, KLR has it spot on as far as i can see, we have come across lugged WW1 bimetal (standard coat of arms) badges but suspect they were old stock or reservists badges. The pals lugged non voided badge seems only to have been used for the original pals, they are rarely seen on late war photos ( same can be said of the 'City' shoulder titles)

chris

[harribobs]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

Can someone please confirm the exact style of lug as used on Manchester Pals shoulder titles, namely the 24th Battalion.

I own such a title and my example has canadian style lugs made from cut copper plate. I am wondering if these are correct?

Thank you.

unfortunately mine are mounted and framed but i'm 90% sure that they are the cut copper plate style, i've seen 3 separate examples IIRC

[jeanpit-frenchy]

below my 2 city manchester

[Alan O]

If I might say that is a lovely example of an Edwardian badge.

Harribobs

good to see you back as the resident Manchester enthusiast if only to envy at your Pals collection once again.

One badge that has not been mentioned in this post is the solid bi-metal version. Most people are content that the all brass lugged one was a private order for the Manchester Pals (hence Harribobs early war comment) before official issue came in. However the solid bi-metal one is described as Pals, service Bn and even Pals Officers?

Anyone have any new thoughts on them?

Alan

[Jibba Jabba]

Thank you for the replies gentlemen.

Harribobs is always great to hear from regimental experts in the field of badges, there is no one better equiped to provide solid information.

Jeanpit thank you for the photo, my badge has the different style of lugs than yours.

The 24th Title seams to be getting a little expensive, near 100 pounds just for one example. I`m really happy that my example is not messed about with

[ard-ri]

I have a 5th VB Manchester Bi-metal slider in one of my many boxes. This one is in my "Iffy" box. Does this badge sound legit?

[KLR]

The regulars had of course adopted the slider by 1908 and it is usually thought that the Vol Bns lagged behind, only being forced onto having sliders as they became TF in 1908.
But there is evidence that quite a few Vol Bns had them before 1908 - I have a 2VB KLR with slider. So I don't see any problem with yours.

[harribobs]

morning gents!

hmmm the solid non-voided 'pals' 'officers'



these do have the right 'feel' about them, but i am not really convinced. i am pretty certain they are not pals officers, someone suggested they were repros made in the 1930s that have now got a life of their own??


pals officers


Re the 5th VB with slider, i would like to see it but they are amongst the most copied of all the VBs and the copies usually have......sliders

[Luke H]

Hi Harribobs,

Any idea why the officers economy pals version has a slider?

Luke

[Alan O]

Luke,

I should clarify my labelling. The solid badge has been sold by at least one overly imaginative dealer as the Officer's version. In fact I (or Harribobs who has alot more expertise in the Manchester Regt than most) cannot find any photgraphic or other evidence to back it up. I suspect that this labelling is totally bogus and the officers would have worn either the standard all brass Pals badge or more likely simply ordered a standard Officer badge from the Manchester Regt's official tailors.



The more I think about this badge the more I think that it may well be an old commercially made badge - cheaper and easier to make without the voids.

Alan