England - Scotland Border ceremonies

[LONGSHANKS]

Hi Jo, yes going well. A sight better than the Colonies. Just needs a return to a leader with a spine, like back in early eighties.......

[Hussar100]

I think this referendum is a horrible shame. I see from the press and media that's it's 50/50 at the moment, which is what I suspected from the start. I just hope the NO lobby is able to prevail on the day to preserve the United Kingdom I love and have served.

I wish I knew what was making Slippery Alex and his cronies feel Scotland would be better on its own.

United We Stand - Divided We Fall.

[L1A1]

I'll tell you what motivates him to think Scotland can go on its own, pure personal greed and aggrandisement.

He just wants to be number one in Scotland.

[REMEVMBEA1]

There's not a lot of point blaming the three stoogies as this was inevitable once Scotland was devolved and got a SNP majority. I still hope that most Scots will see Salmond for what he is and vote to remain in the union but if they vote to leave I expect the rUK government to give away as little as possible and remember that their first duty is to the remainder of the UK.

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by L1A1

I'll tell you what motivates him to think Scotland can go on its own, pure personal greed and aggrandisement.

He just wants to be number one in Scotland.

I'm inclined to agree because I can't see any other reason. Scotland as part of the UK is a successful country. Why fix it when it's not broken/?

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

There's not a lot of point blaming the three stoogies as this was inevitable once Scotland was devolved and got a SNP majority. I still hope that most Scots will see Salmond for what he is and vote to remain in the union but if they vote to leave I expect the rUK government to give away as little as possible and remember that their first duty is to the remainder of the UK.

I blame Labour to tell the truth. If they hadn't lost sight of their objectives in Scotland and stopped treating the Scottish vote as "Given" then the SNP wouldn't have got into power in the first place. After all Devolution was Labour led.

[LONGSHANKS]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

There's not a lot of point blaming the three stoogies as this was inevitable once Scotland was devolved and got a SNP majority. I still hope that most Scots will see Salmond for what he is and vote to remain in the union but if they vote to leave I expect the rUK government to give away as little as possible and remember that their first duty is to the remainder of the UK.

Well I think we should blame them. Cameron get's partial blame for putting the whole thing on a back burner, assuming that it was a given they would stay. And putting his attention in practicing his lapdog status with the American's.

And as Hussar states, the full blame is with labour for allowing devolution. Instead of retaining power, and practicing the old English way of buying them off. But there again, a Scot as Prime Minister, why wouldn't Blaire lay a time bomb for the Union. Just like everything else he did with that Bafoon Brown.

In looking now at the situation and results of a YES vote. It was stated that with the diminishing of the UK by nearly a third, it would be tough for us to maintain our position at the UN security council, and would lessen our power globally. In retrospect maybe it's the watershed to finally at last convince who ever sits in number 10, that we aren't and can't play the world policeman anymore. Concentrate on home issues like the pourus borders, and maybe act like the rest of Europe (well not the French, as they still think they are a power), and spend the dividend of defence on the people and what we need. I mean Germany is the most powerful in Europe, do you ever see the German army marching in cities like Baghdad... Probably because they aren't a stooge of the Yanks.

I know this isn't exactly a lot to do with the vote across the border, but I feel it is part and parcel of an overall incompetence at number 10. I mean who use's the "desperate" in statement and expect respect as Prime Minister.

Simon.

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by LONGSHANKS

Well I think we should blame them. Cameron get's partial blame for putting the whole thing on a back burner, assuming that it was a given they would stay. And putting his attention in practicing his lapdog status with the American's.

And as Hussar states, the full blame is with labour for allowing devolution. Instead of retaining power, and practicing the old English way of buying them off. But there again, a Scot as Prime Minister, why wouldn't Blaire lay a time bomb for the Union. Just like everything else he did with that Bafoon Brown.

In looking now at the situation and results of a YES vote. It was stated that with the diminishing of the UK by nearly a third, it would be tough for us to maintain our position at the UN security council, and would lessen our power globally. In retrospect maybe it's the watershed to finally at last convince who ever sits in number 10, that we aren't and can't play the world policeman anymore. Concentrate on home issues like the pourus borders, and maybe act like the rest of Europe (well not the French, as they still think they are a power), and spend the dividend of defence on the people and what we need. I mean Germany is the most powerful in Europe, do you ever see the German army marching in cities like Baghdad... Probably because they aren't a stooge of the Yanks.

I know this isn't exactly a lot to do with the vote across the border, but I feel it is part and parcel of an overall incompetence at number 10. I mean who use's the "desperate" in statement and expect respect as Prime Minister.

Simon.

Labour took the Scots for granted because the ruling elite of nuLabour was Scottish - much to the annoyance of the English electorate - and rightly so.

Once nuLabour lost power it meant that Scotland lost its voice in parliament because too many Labour seats were Scottish - that's why the Scots changed their preference to SNP, to give nuLabour a lesson.

And that's what's led to this mess.

Ultimately it's Blairism which is at the heart of it. Labour is taking a long time to recover from it and the recriminations go on, and on, and on ad infinitum.

Mind you there was another border referendum in the 70's and there was much the same hype as there is now. I just hope the result is the same.

I don't think we're stooges of the Yanks but it's on record that Blair deceived parliament, and the country, to join a war with America so that he would be seen as a successful wartime leader. All for his After Dinner CV dontcha know? He's the only man in my living memory who ran the office of PM for his own benefit and with a plan of how he would use his former position when he was eventually deposed.

[Roobarb]

*caveat - this isn't a diatribe against one political party. It is just a personal observation on how things were orchestrated at the time of inception and the political climate of the country in that period.*

I think it is fair to say that devolution in Scotland and Wales was engineered to guarantee that the Blair era Labour party would essentially have hands on the levers of power for generations. It was this blinkered political tribalism that had led us to the state of affairs we are in today.

Scotland was considered 'safe' for Labour as was Wales. A solid block of votes for evermore to be taken for granted. The electorate however had entirely different ideas and changed things out of all recognition from the party approved script especially in Scotland.

The needs of a mere party were put before the needs of the country.

I was dismayed to see that there is still an element of this tribal lunacy on the campaign trail this very week. Prescott railing against the evil Tories who were sharing the same podium and also arguing for the continuation of the Union. Brown has also indulged in similar outbursts.

Such meaningless bickering and point scoring is disgraceful when the stakes are so high and the outcome will affect so many.
By all means have ideological differences. Argue them in the media venues that you inhabit. Tear yourselves to shreds on the 'Today' programme. But do not do it when you are allied in a campaign to prevent the breakup of my country.

You really couldn't make this up...

[LONGSHANKS]

I'm sorry Hussar, we are so the sidekick of the American's it's becoming embarrassing, from my perspective anyway.

Right now we are the only nation standing with America on

1- The Ukraine Civil War - A coup fathered by UK and the American's and supporting Neo Nazi organisations openly verbal on their intent on ethnic cleansing of the eastern provinces.More have died there than Gaza, and nothing was said on the BBC. The rest of Europe is on the edge of saying no more.
2 - Say nothing about the debacle in Iraq 2003 onwards - Training and supplying of ISIS, etc,etc.
3- Syrian Civil War - We would have been bombing Assad that afternoon, if not Parliament grew a spine and said NO.
4 - Libya - Now decending into civil war, after us and the French by American request deposed Gaddafi. Much to the Italian's horror....
5 - We are the only proponent of the TransAtlantic Trade agreement - Which give's American companies immunity from European laws and allows GM crops into our food chain.
6 - Afghanistan - Say no more. Our 5th time into that country with the same result.
7 - Gaza - Zero condemnation of Israel and the continuing of supplies to the IDF. Saying that we believe our bits aren't being thrown at the Gazan's....
8 - Being the biggest supporter of American requested sanctions against the Russian Federation - Only because we sell the least to Russia and have no natural gas from them.
9 - The only NATO member to fully support the rest spending 2% GDP on arms.

The list goes on mate. And that is only in the last 13 years. My only comment is that I have spent 20 years in the US. And it was commonly heard by US governmental players that for example. We don't want the UK to leave the EU, as it is OUR stepping stone into the continent. We are nothing more than the same "aircraft carrier" of WW2 to them. If we are not careful we will be ostracised one day as nothing more than the lapdog we are becoming.

I recommend any forum member starting to watch news agencies like RT and Al-gazeera. RT is not allowed in the US for obvious reason's as they don't want the American's actually finding out what is being done in their name. The same applies to the Brits.

These are my own opinions of course. But having seen both sides of the Atlantic, and how the two Allies actions are portrayed by their news agencies (BBC,CNN, SKY etc) no wonder the American's can start a war in Europe, and we blame Putin........

Cheers

Simon.

[LONGSHANKS]

Originally Posted by Roobarb

*caveat - this isn't a diatribe against one political party. It is just a personal observation on how things were orchestrated at the time of inception and the political climate of the country in that period.*

I think it is fair to say that devolution in Scotland and Wales was engineered to guarantee that the Blair era Labour party would essentially have hands on the levers of power for generations. It was this blinkered political tribalism that had led us to the state of affairs we are in today.

Scotland was considered 'safe' for Labour as was Wales. A solid block of votes for evermore to be taken for granted. The electorate however had entirely different ideas and changed things out of all recognition from the party approved script especially in Scotland.

The needs of a mere party were put before the needs of the country.

I was dismayed to see that there is still an element of this tribal lunacy on the campaign trail this very week. Prescott railing against the evil Tories who were sharing the same podium and also arguing for the continuation of the Union. Brown has also indulged in similar outbursts.

Such meaningless bickering and point scoring is disgraceful when the stakes are so high and the outcome will affect so many.
By all means have ideological differences. Argue them in the media venues that you inhabit. Tear yourselves to shreds on the 'Today' programme. But do not do it when you are allied in a campaign to prevent the breakup of my country.

You really couldn't make this up...

I couldn't agree anymore. RB

Simon.

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by Roobarb

*caveat - this isn't a diatribe against one political party. It is just a personal observation on how things were orchestrated at the time of inception and the political climate of the country in that period.*

I think it is fair to say that devolution in Scotland and Wales was engineered to guarantee that the Blair era Labour party would essentially have hands on the levers of power for generations. It was this blinkered political tribalism that had led us to the state of affairs we are in today.

Scotland was considered 'safe' for Labour as was Wales. A solid block of votes for evermore to be taken for granted. The electorate however had entirely different ideas and changed things out of all recognition from the party approved script especially in Scotland.

The needs of a mere party were put before the needs of the country.

I was dismayed to see that there is still an element of this tribal lunacy on the campaign trail this very week. Prescott railing against the evil Tories who were sharing the same podium and also arguing for the continuation of the Union. Brown has also indulged in similar outbursts.

Such meaningless bickering and point scoring is disgraceful when the stakes are so high and the outcome will affect so many.
By all means have ideological differences. Argue them in the media venues that you inhabit. Tear yourselves to shreds on the 'Today' programme. But do not do it when you are allied in a campaign to prevent the breakup of my country.

You really couldn't make this up...

We're reading from the same hymn-sheet Roobarb.

Originally Posted by LONGSHANKS

I'm sorry Hussar, we are so the sidekick of the American's it's becoming embarrassing, from my perspective anyway.

Right now we are the only nation standing with America on

1- The Ukraine Civil War - A coup fathered by UK and the American's and supporting Neo Nazi organisations openly verbal on their intent on ethnic cleansing of the eastern provinces.More have died there than Gaza, and nothing was said on the BBC. The rest of Europe is on the edge of saying no more.
2 - Say nothing about the debacle in Iraq 2003 onwards - Training and supplying of ISIS, etc,etc.
3- Syrian Civil War - We would have been bombing Assad that afternoon, if not Parliament grew a spine and said NO.
4 - Libya - Now decending into civil war, after us and the French by American request deposed Gaddafi. Much to the Italian's horror....
5 - We are the only proponent of the TransAtlantic Trade agreement - Which give's American companies immunity from European laws and allows GM crops into our food chain.
6 - Afghanistan - Say no more. Our 5th time into that country with the same result.
7 - Gaza - Zero condemnation of Israel and the continuing of supplies to the IDF. Saying that we believe our bits aren't being thrown at the Gazan's....
8 - Being the biggest supporter of American requested sanctions against the Russian Federation - Only because we sell the least to Russia and have no natural gas from them.
9 - The only NATO member to fully support the rest spending 2% GDP on arms.

The list goes on mate. And that is only in the last 13 years. My only comment is that I have spent 20 years in the US. And it was commonly heard by US governmental players that for example. We don't want the UK to leave the EU, as it is OUR stepping stone into the continent. We are nothing more than the same "aircraft carrier" of WW2 to them. If we are not careful we will be ostracised one day as nothing more than the lapdog we are becoming.

I recommend any forum member starting to watch news agencies like RT and Al-gazeera. RT is not allowed in the US for obvious reason's as they don't want the American's actually finding out what is being done in their name. The same applies to the Brits.

These are my own opinions of course. But having seen both sides of the Atlantic, and how the two Allies actions are portrayed by their news agencies (BBC,CNN, SKY etc) no wonder the American's can start a war in Europe, and we blame Putin........

Cheers

Simon.

Simon I'm afraid I can't agree with much of what you've written above. I don't however want to go into a huge political diatribe containing my opinions on all you've written. Suffice to say I don't think we're totally in league with the US and the August 2013 vote against sending military aid to Syria proves that (in my opinion). Not only that but it proves that we have a PM who will put these motions before parliament and accept the outcome of a vote - unlike Blair who, in my opinion, created the most corrupt regime we're ever likely to see in the UK. It was almost like a presidency and was achieved by manipulating the rules and creating legislation "in the shadows". Blair didn't work for the people, he worked for himself and used his position to feather his nest then and for the future - a future which he's now living whilst he left the totally inept Brown to fail in picking up the pieces, something which the current government is still trying to do.

Roobarb is correct when he says that Labour tried to engineer British politics so that the party would essentially have hands on the levers of power for generations. Once Blair was gone there didn't seem to be the same Machiavellian team to carry on his work of Labourising the UK permanently.

Blair doesn't give a toss about the Labour party now, or the UK. He's had what he wanted out of it and is reaping the benefits. Meanwhile the UK is still trying to recover from his mismanagement.

[LONGSHANKS]

I agree Hussar, no need to get into a huge debate, but it's enjoyable to chat about different stuff now and again. It's a British tradition.

But I think I made the point that Parliament stood up to him and said no. And good on them for it.

That doesn't disprove what I said though. In fact it confirms it. He made a mistake in the timing when he recalled Parliament on Syria. His whips had no time to get a "persuaded" group to swing the vote. Notice he isn't planning on making the same mistake again. He stayed on vacation, and left parliament in recess over ISIS in August. He didn't want to be embarrassed again

On my other points on what we have followed the Americans singularly on, those do not need Parliaments permission....that there is the problem. Doesn't mean we don't follow where told. Doesn't mean we aren't doing as we are asked (or told), as no Brit's on the ground in the Ukraine, Syria, Gaza, etc. Doesn't mean we aren't shaking the wrong hands as the 51st state.

I'm a life long Conservative, child of Margaret Thatcher. So I'm not slamming any specific party, the Labour would follow ring through nose also.

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by LONGSHANKS

I agree Hussar, no need to get into a huge debate, but it's enjoyable to chat about different stuff now and again. It's a British tradition.

But I think I made the point that Parliament stood up to him and said no. And good on them for it.

That doesn't disprove what I said though. In fact it confirms it. He made a mistake in the timing when he recalled Parliament on Syria. His whips had no time to get a "persuaded" group to swing the vote. Notice he isn't planning on making the same mistake again. He stayed on vacation, and left parliament in recess over ISIS in August. He didn't want to be embarrassed again

On my other points on what we have followed the Americans singularly on, those do not need Parliaments permission....that there is the problem. Doesn't mean we don't follow where told. Doesn't mean we aren't doing as we are asked (or told), as no Brit's on the ground in the Ukraine, Syria, Gaza, etc. Doesn't mean we aren't shaking the wrong hands as the 51st state.

I'm a life long Conservative, child of Margaret Thatcher. So I'm not slamming any specific party, the Labour would follow ring through nose also.

I'll get my sympathies out of the way too: I'm an Ulster Unionist with a small "u". In mainland terms I'm a centre left conservative (liberal conservative) so I think you and several others here are on more or less the same wavelength as me. I haven't voted in over 20 years though; not in GB or at home. I'm just not that political, but I have my opinions.

I also agree it's nice to have this type of discussion. It's good to show that we're not just a crowd of swots or whatever else onlookers might deem us.

I don't (as a country) think we follow where we're told though. I do know the skulduggery which goes on in political parties in order to make things happen the way the "suits" want it to but I also feel that many of the propositions put forward are in the best interest of the country and as America is our biggest ally I don't see why we shouldn't back them on a lot of occasions, just not for the reasons Blair did.

Syria was out for me because of the 30 odd factions fighting as rebels there, some who are vehemently anti British. The IS problem is more focused however and from what I know at the minute I would support intervention, even to the point of putting boots on the ground. Being honest, with the information I have seen, I think a good British or American armoured brigade would sort them out in a week. I do bear in mind however that what is being told to me is heavily influenced by spin to make me want to buy into the project. The question always is: will there be another dodgy dossier found in the future? I doubt it but I know that the PM is intelligence led which means MI6 will be making the recommendation whether or not we should put our people in there - strike aircraft, shipborne missiles or actual troops.

Ultimately it means we have to put our trust in the people who are elected to lead us and those who are employed to assist them and if that means they consider fealty to the USA to be appropriate then we have to believe it. After all, it's not that long ago they helped us out big time - I'm talking about the Ulster Peace Process here, not WW2. It couldn't have been done without the Yanks.

[LONGSHANKS]

No doubt on face value American help in the troubles was seen to be positive.

But.....My take on the Ulster peace process Hussar to be honest was that after 9/11 and America's blanket statement that they would not tolerate ANY terrorism in the world, only meant that they could not turn a blind eye to Noraid anymore (which they did from the beginning), and expect British support in the war in the middle east. I believe we demanded the end of any support for the IRA etc. I've actually been in a bar in Boston in the mid 90's and seen the collection can go round for Noraid.......

The peace process was an understanding with the Republic of Ireland, not the ski mask chap's in Belfast. That took them to understand they were on their own after loosing US (un-official) support in 2001. Plus it did help that all pretty much in NI were fed up with the whole affair really. Especially with the south having such a good time with EU membership. Terrorist rely on the support of the people, they loose that and the gigs up.

I don't think the US really cared about who got blown up that week in N. Ireland or for the previous 30 years really. Their leaning (especially in the North East US) from the beginning was against those bad British subjugating those poor Irish freedom fighters.

Please don't think I'm anti Irish, I'm half Irish myself with two ancestors in the IRA in the 1920's. But based on my years listening to the American Irish, you'd think we were still turfing out farmers from their hovels.......

Back on the main theme of Scotland, I sometime's think the Scots still feel we are led by the Duke of Cumberland.....sometimes I wish we were

[Hussar100]

Originally Posted by LONGSHANKS

No doubt on face value American help in the troubles was seen to be positive.

But.....My take on the Ulster peace process Hussar to be honest was that after 9/11 and America's blanket statement that they would not tolerate ANY terrorism in the world, only meant that they could not turn a blind eye to Noraid anymore (which they did from the beginning), and expect British support in the war in the middle east. I believe we demanded the end of any support for the IRA etc. I've actually been in a bar in Boston in the mid 90's and seen the collection can go round for Noraid.......

The peace process was an understanding with the Republic of Ireland, not the ski mask chap's in Belfast. That took them to understand they were on their own after loosing US (un-official) support in 2001. Plus it did help that all pretty much in NI were fed up with the whole affair really. Especially with the south having such a good time with EU membership. Terrorist rely on the support of the people, they loose that and the gigs up.

I don't think the US really cared about who got blown up that week in N. Ireland or for the previous 30 years really. Their leaning (especially in the North East US) from the beginning was against those bad British subjugating those poor Irish freedom fighters.

Please don't think I'm anti Irish, I'm half Irish myself with two ancestors in the IRA in the 1920's. But based on my years listening to the American Irish, you'd think we were still turfing out farmers from their hovels.......

Back on the main theme of Scotland, I sometime's think the Scots still feel we are led by the Duke of Cumberland.....sometimes I wish we were

I don't disagree with your take on the Peace Process. All we care about is that the killing is over.

As for the Scots: I lived there for 20 years (Edinburgh), my wife's from there. Most educated people I came across would prefer to be British (including the memsahib). Most nats I came across were of the Buckfast variety. Get enough drink in them and they'd be shouting "FREEDOM" and wanting to kill any English person within arms's reach.

That's why I hate nationalism, because there are people who will kill for it. There's also the fact, which I've made clear already, that I'm proud to be British (as well as Irish) and hope that the UK I'm buried in is the same one I was born into - the country I served. People can be proud Scots, English, Welsh or Irish and still support the union which has served us all so well for so long.

Btw I note that somebody said earlier in the discussion that we'd lose a third of the UK - actually we'd only lose about 9% as there are just over 5 million people living in Scotland.