Wings ID needed

[uscob]

Does anybody knows the lower Para Wings?
Gurkha od another Country?
Shown with Standard Size RN Wings.

[leigh kitchen]

The small para wing is 2nd King Edwards Own Gurkha Rifles.

[mike_vee]

An American site has them for sale at $10.00 with the description :

"BRITISH 2nd KING EDWARD VII OWN GURKHA RIFLES (SIRMOOR RIFLES) PARACHUTE WING (EMBROIDERED)"

But that could as accurate as many eBay descriptions.

[uscob]

Thanks a lot Guy's!

[Toby Purcell]

The configuration of black on red is categorically that for the Kings Royal Rifle Corps, formerly the 60th Rifles (Royal American Regiment) and a full range of skill at arms and specialist qualification badges (including parachute wings) were produced for them.

This was not least because like the Foot Guards and Rifle Brigade they were a large regiment that at a time when most regular infantry regiments comprised 2-regular battalions, had 4-regular battalions, as well as a more than usual number of special reserve (ex ‘Militia’) battalions. The 2nd Gurkhas were aligned with the KRRC as an honour marking their fighting together in the siege of Delhi during the 1857 Indian Mutiny (aka 1st war of independence).

To mark this relationship forged in battle 2nd GR adopted the same, black on red badges, as did some battalions of the London Regiment (Territorial Force), such as the 16th (Westminster Rifles) battalion. The badges were thus considered and categorised by the supply chain as KRRC ‘pattern’.

NB. In a similar manner and for a similar reason black on rifle green badges were produced as a pattern for the Rifle Brigade. These badges too, were worn as an honour by at least one Gurkha Rifles regiment (the 7th) and several battalions of the London Regiment.

[leigh kitchen]

The small badge shown in the original post was exclusive to 2 GR?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

The small badge shown in the original post was exclusive to 2 GR?

No, it’s KRRC pattern in the size for mess dress, as they did not wear bullion insignia on that dress. It was similarly worn by the units I have explained. That of course included 2GR. Mess dress included the tropical white version with kamarband (cummerbund) and red and black badges looked especially smart on white. In the period after WW2 there were far more officers and men of all regiments In possession of parachute wings than is common today and those so qualified took pride in wearing them on their own ‘regimental dress’, which necessitated a range of different patterns. Ergo two sizes of wings, one for field dress (BD/KD) and one for mess dress. As some rifle regiments affected very small badges of rank for officers, it’s possible that small wings were used in all forms of dress by 2nd GR. A rifles aficionado will know.

[leigh kitchen]

Ah right, I've only ever seen those wings labelled as 2 GR (British Army Proficiency Badges shows them only in an image of the old army recruiting poster "All The Signs of a Specialist 2" where they're captioned to 2 GR).

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Ah right, I've only ever seen those wings labelled as 2 GR (British Army Proficiency Badges shows them only in an image of the old army recruiting poster "All The Signs of a Specialist 2" where they're captioned to 2 GR).

Leigh if 2nd GR wore miniature rank badges (which from memory I think that they did) then I can imagine that they wore the small wings on all forms of dress, but the badge is mess dress size and so the parachute qualified SNCOs and officers of the KRRC and those regiments that adopted the black and red insignia through association with the KRRC, would have worn the small wings on temperate and tropical mess dress (both roll collar at that time). Even some regiments in other parts of the Commonwealth adopted the same style. There are occasional errors on the Gale and Polden and HMSO posters as I’m sure you will know.

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Leigh if 2nd GR wore miniature rank badges (which from memory I think that they did) then I can imagine that they wore the small wings on all forms of dress, but the badge is mess dress size and so the parachute qualified SNCOs and officers of the KRRC and those regiments that adopted the black and red insignia through association with the KRRC, would have worn the small wings on temperate and tropical mess dress (both roll collar at that time). Even some regiments in other parts of the Commonwealth adopted the same style. There are occasional errors on the Gale and Polden and HMSO posters as I’m sure you will know.

That would explain why some of the older trade badges appear in the smaller size. I have "R" in the smaller size in black on red.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Mike H

That would explain why some of the older trade badges appear in the smaller size. I have "R" in the smaller size in black on red.

Yes Mike, I don’t think every single badge was produced in mess dress size (I’m fairly sure the small size was private purchase), but the common badges of wings, crossed rifles and swords, etc. certainly were.

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Mike H

That would explain why some of the older trade badges appear in the smaller size. I have "R" in the smaller size in black on red.

What size is the smaller size, please?

Marc

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

What size is the smaller size, please?

Marc

The size that you usually associate with No2 dress Marc,rather than the larger battledress size. Dimensions to follow .

[54Bty]

Originally Posted by Mike H

The size that you usually associate with No2 dress Marc,rather than the larger battledress size. Dimensions to follow .

Thank you, so it is no smaller than the normal 1960 pattern badges which are two thirds the size of the original pattern. The wing in question although of a different shape is two thirds the size of the original.

Marc

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

Thank you, so it is no smaller than the normal 1960 pattern badges which are two thirds the size of the original pattern. The wing in question although of a different shape is two thirds the size of the original.

Marc

If we now think it’s 1960s No2 Dress size then it’s part of the full range of badges produced for each type. Can you recall them all Marc? If memory serves there were the following:
1. General service pattern (although I’m not sure if that’s what it was termed).
2. KRRC pattern.
3. Rifle Brigade pattern.
4. Cameronians (SR) pattern.
5. Royal Ulster Rifles pattern.
6. Somerset & Cornwall LI pattern (I think this might have been a later addition and it later on became LI generic).

All of the above included parachute wings. I’m not sure if I’ve missed any. Each of the British Army Gurkha Rifles regiments adopted one of the rifles patterns above according to traditional association. Presumably the Gurkha independent Parachute Company wore wings according to their regiment, but I’m unclear from memory what their initial policy was.

NB. I think that one potential confusion is that once KRRC merged into the Royal Green Jackets they ceased wearing their long standing black on red insignia, but it continued to be worn by 2nd GR and, because of large stocks to be used up, Junior Soldier (aka boy service) units too. The supply chain continued to issue these with a KRRC nomenclature, but I’m unsure if later stocks were recategorised and NSN labelled as 2GR.