KOSB

[mm1]

Hi All,

please forgive my ignorance, but can anyone tell me how to identify a KOSB cap badge as WW1 or 2 ?

Cheers, mark

[Alan O]

Mark

You can't for certain!

[mm1]

Here is the badge. Notice unvoided between front legs and orb. Very thin piece of metal there that hasn't quite been pushed out..

Cheers, Mark

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Mark

You can't for certain!

I second that. This applies to many other badges as well.

CB

ps, the KOSB badges with those flat electrical connection style lugs are thought to be ww1 era.
ps again, a photo of the reverse might give some hints to it's age.

[mm1]

Hi CB, here we go..

Does the same apply to most of the Scottish regiment badges ie no or very little change between WW1 and WW2 ?

Cheers, Mark

[cbuehler]

Impossible to confirm the time period of your badge. It does not have the specific characteristics of known ww1 badges, but that does not mean that it is not.
Yes, other Scottish badges can be impossible to date as well, unless a change was made such as that for the Black Watch.

CB

[Borderer]

Hi Mark,

The King's Own Scottish Borderers cap badge: Post 1902 the cap badge were similar in appearance however, there were differences in Officers and OR's for example the same badge made by three different manufacturers were all different in one way or another.

Can I refer you the 'Scottish Regimental Badges 1793 - 1971' plate 14

Badge No 84 to 86 & 87 are three example made by different manufacturers:

84 is a slightly larger badge with distinctive large 'Dog & Bonnet' 'Lion & Crown' note with no supporting thistle leaves between the St Andrews Cross tips and the bonnet or crown.

85 Is a similar size cap badge but with a distinctively smaller Dog & Bonnet, also the regimental title in the circle is pierced out, this badge came in Silver hall marked & in White Metal worn by WO's & SNCO's there are other version with the upper and lower scrolls pierced, also with only the upper scroll pierced, when any of the scrolls are pierced the centre title scroll is always pierced.

86 This badge comes in two sizes: First the small version this was in service between 1902 to 1903, as it was the centre piece worn on the Home Service Pattern Blue Clothe Hemet on top of the eight-pointed star, again two version Officers and OR's, with the OR's solid and the Officers pierced. Moreover there were three loop lugs on the rear of the badge, for fixing it to the Helmet Plate. After the HSPBCH was with draw from service for the Kilmarnock Bonnet in 1903 the centre piece badge continued to be worn with the top loop lug removed, the stumps can be seen should you manage to secure one, confirming its authenticity or with the three loops still in place.

86 Second Cap badge was slightly bigger again in the same two metals and the Officers Pierced, these were worn on the Kilmarnock Bonnet, TOS & Balmoral for Officers and WO's, also for all the Glengarry. A historical note we lost our cap badge in 1959 and replaced with the Lowland Brigade Badge, However, in 1969 we were rebadged, we paraded on the square in Belfast Barrack Osnabruck in a one for one badge, in my book on page 220 plate 38 is the very badge I was given, its the King's Own Scottish Borderers O/R's post 1902 KC white metal version.

87 is a WW1 cap badge of the same style but made of brass these were in service from 1915 to 1918 worn in the TOS and Glengarry, Historical note, There is one of these badges in the Hooge Crater Museum at the Ypres Salient, Flanders Belgium, having been recovered from the Passchendaele battlefield.

I hope this short reply shows that the Cap badge worn by the King's Own Scottish Borderers is not such a straight forward thing, as I have only skimmed the surface when you take into consideration that we were a family Regiment and it was common to see young soldiers wearing their Great-Great Grandfathers, GGF, Fathers Cap Badge, with the various crowns QVK, KC & QC during their service.

I will try to post pages from my book illustrating what I have just said.

Best
Hiram

[Borderer]

Hi Mick,

As promised here are a selection badges I discussed of the King's Own Scottish Borderers taken from my book 'Borderers in Uniform from 1689' also a copy of the Flyer telling what my book is about.

I hope the picture of the book pages come out in the order I posted them, fingers crossed.

1. Page 217 badges No 20 to 22, to understand the picture without the text that explains each badge in the book, 20a is the centrepieces of 20 and 20c above and 20b is the rear of these badges; Note the left badge 20 is the 1902-03 Home Service Pattern Blue Clothe Helmet badge with three rear Loops, rear shown 20b left; 20a right badge is a Kilmarnock/TOS/Glengarry badge from 1903 with two loop as seen in 20b right note if it is fitted to the Eight star Plate on the HSPBCH it does not fit, see gap illustrated and it rests lower on the plate, all wrong.

2. Page 216. These are Victorian KOSB Cap Badges; 16. 1891-1902 Officers' Gilt Plate and Silver Centrepiece worn on the HSPBCH, there is a piece of Black velvet behind the badge which has an exact impression of the badge indicating how long it has been in situ. 17. Officers Forage Cap badge 1891 -1900 in silver and pierced centre and upper scrolls 17a is the OR's version of the same badge in white metal. 18. 1887-1902 ORs' gilded metal plate with white metal centrepiece worn on the HSPBCH, right 18a shows the centrepiece removed from the plate and the three-point fixing loops on the rear of the badge at 18b. 19. 1987-1902 ORs' Glengarry badge in white metal QVC with two loop fixing to the rear. The badge at 19a is from the same period but has been redesigned, from a different manufacturer, with small differences to the position of the thistles and scrolls and it is slightly smaller overall, produced in white metal.

3. Page 220. 38. Its the very badge I was issued with on the rebadging parade in 1969 already discussed. 39. Post 1954 - 2006 ORs' TOS & Glengarry cap badges in white metal and 39a produced in 1983 of the same design in anodized metal.
40. 1969 - 2006 All three of these badges, from different periods in the regiments history, were worn during this period by officers, warrant officers, SNCOs', JNCOs' and private soldiers of the King's Own Scottish Borderers, demonstrating the bond between the Regiment and the families of past members. As a family regiment, it was common practice, among all ranks, to wear a family cap badge with pride, while serving in the Regiment.

4.& 5. Are the fly leaves printed to give an idea what my book 'Borderers in Uniform from 1689' is like.

I hope this is helpful in answering your question, Scottish Regimental cap badges is a complex subject.

Kind regards
Hiram

[Scotlandthebrave]

Hello Hiram,
i am interested in your book. How can i order a copy ? I am in
France.
Thank you beforehand.
Regards.
Stay safe.
Jean-Marie

[Borderer]

Hi Jean-Marie,

I will PM you with my E Mail address and the relevant details.

Keep safe
Kind regards
Hiram

[Neil1689]

Hi Jean-Marie
I would highly recommend Hiram's book to anyone. You will certainly enjoy it
Neil

[cbuehler]

Superb information here on this fine old regiment.

CB

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Borderer

Hi Mick,

As promised here are a selection badges I discussed of the King's Own Scottish Borderers taken from my book 'Borderers in Uniform from 1689' also a copy of the Flyer telling what my book is about.

I hope the picture of the book pages come out in the order I posted them, fingers crossed.

1. Page 217 badges No 20 to 22, to understand the picture without the text that explains each badge in the book, 20a is the centrepieces of 20 and 20c above and 20b is the rear of these badges; Note the left badge 20 is the 1902-03 Home Service Pattern Blue Clothe Helmet badge with three rear Loops, rear shown 20b left; 20a right badge is a Kilmarnock/TOS/Glengarry badge from 1903 with two loop as seen in 20b right note if it is fitted to the Eight star Plate on the HSPBCH it does not fit, see gap illustrated and it rests lower on the plate, all wrong.

2. Page 216. These are Victorian KOSB Cap Badges; 16. 1891-1902 Officers' Gilt Plate and Silver Centrepiece worn on the HSPBCH, there is a piece of Black velvet behind the badge which has an exact impression of the badge indicating how long it has been in situ. 17. Officers Forage Cap badge 1891 -1900 in silver and pierced centre and upper scrolls 17a is the OR's version of the same badge in white metal. 18. 1887-1902 ORs' gilded metal plate with white metal centrepiece worn on the HSPBCH, right 18a shows the centrepiece removed from the plate and the three-point fixing loops on the rear of the badge at 18b. 19. 1987-1902 ORs' Glengarry badge in white metal QVC with two loop fixing to the rear. The badge at 19a is from the same period but has been redesigned, from a different manufacturer, with small differences to the position of the thistles and scrolls and it is slightly smaller overall, produced in white metal.

3. Page 220. 38. Its the very badge I was issued with on the rebadging parade in 1969 already discussed. 39. Post 1954 - 2006 ORs' TOS & Glengarry cap badges in white metal and 39a produced in 1983 of the same design in anodized metal.
40. 1969 - 2006 All three of these badges, from different periods in the regiments history, were worn during this period by officers, warrant officers, SNCOs', JNCOs' and private soldiers of the King's Own Scottish Borderers, demonstrating the bond between the Regiment and the families of past members. As a family regiment, it was common practice, among all ranks, to wear a family cap badge with pride, while serving in the Regiment.

4.& 5. Are the fly leaves printed to give an idea what my book 'Borderers in Uniform from 1689' is like.

I hope this is helpful in answering your question, Scottish Regimental cap badges is a complex subject.

Kind regards
Hiram

I have just received my copy of your excellent book - many thanks for the very prompt attention and excellent communications throughout. I very much look forward to digesting content - there is a lot to go at thank you.
Regards
Mike

[Borderer]

Hi Mike,

It was a pleasure and Thank for your very kind words it is very much appreciated.

Kind Regards
Hiram