British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Canadian Military Insignia > Royal Canadian Navy

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-04-12, 01:38 PM
RCN's Avatar
RCN RCN is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: So. ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,057
Default Anchor with QC above

Hello mates,

I originally put this topic in the RN section but since I have an RCN reference to the badge in the text I will also repeat it here in RCN section:


LS Anchor with QC above

This is another somewhat weird rank badge.

I am well aware of the Victorian & pre 1WW PO2 rank badge that looked similar to this badge with either a Victorian or Kings Crown above, but that rank badge was abolished in 1913 & examples of these badges now are very rare!

& this crown is certainly not Victorian in style as I have one of these PO2 badges & the crown is completely different.

It looks more modern to me - especially with the jewels in the crown.

Any thoughts???? But before you jump in pls read the postscript below......
Bryan


& I will add as a postscript:

After our Canadian forces were integrated in 1968 a new rank of Master Corporal was instituted. Now in the 'old' RCN we had no equivalent to this new rank, so what was called a Master seaman was 'invented' & the insignia assigned to the MS was the Leading Seaman killick with a QC added above, very similar to the old pre '13 PO2 rank.

Well to the best of my knowledge the insignia was never manufactured, simply due to the fact that after '69 no more single service insignia were being produced as the CAF "greens" were already out in prototype & in the process of being manufactured & subsequently were on issue from 1970.

So what the newly created Master Seaman did was to manufacture their own insignia. They did this by cutting off a PO1 crown from the PO1 insignia & sewing it on above their killick. I have seen examples of these "created" insignia on RCN uniforms of the period but I have never seen one in gold wire.

Now this is what I think this badge may be, & my reasoning for this is that civilian tailors made gold wire badges in the RCN & its quite possible this is one of these. It looks of that same period to me.


& post postscript to confuse things even more.....

a collector told me he thought it might for the Royal Yacht, but I doubt that also as I thought the RY ratings wore white embroidered badges, & would this rank be even in use by RY ratings?????

Bryan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Master Seaman rank.jpg (98.9 KB, 34 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 13-04-12, 11:36 AM
royston royston is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cotswolds
Posts: 409
Default

Hi Bryan

Definately not Royal Yacht. Going by previous posts, the crown has a blue jewel in the centre, this changed from red to blue in 1920. I noticed that you had seen the thread, reference this change, when I looked back at previous posts. I must admit that the change in colour of the centre jewel was something I had not noticed, albeit I collect RN.

The crown looks like QE2 and your reasoning, reference a Canadian badge, sound good to me.

John
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 13-04-12, 01:26 PM
RCN's Avatar
RCN RCN is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: So. ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,057
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by royston View Post
Hi Bryan

Definately not Royal Yacht. Going by previous posts, the crown has a blue jewel in the centre, this changed from red to blue in 1920. I noticed that you had seen the thread, reference this change, when I looked back at previous posts. I must admit that the change in colour of the centre jewel was something I had not noticed, albeit I collect RN.

The crown looks like QE2 and your reasoning, reference a Canadian badge, sound good to me.

John

Thanks John,

Yes I knew about the jewel colour change as we had a topic running a while back on that; member alco was speaking about that as I recall. & the crown certainly appears to be a EIIR variety, I have many other PO EIIR crowns & they all look pretty similar.

Reason I did not think this was a Victorian era PO2 insignia is I have an example {which I will show below} & it looks completely different, especially in the crown & anchor chain.

So this made me think this insignia was of the late 1960's RCN period just prior to the CAF integration. Altho I have to admit this is the first tailored gold wire MS badge
{if indeed that is what it is} I have ever seen.

So I will show that MS insignia again for reference to the Victorian PO2, & also how the RCN MS insignia was made up by cutting off the crown from a PO1 insignia & placing it on top of the LS anchor insignia.

Bryan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Victoria PO2.jpg (36.9 KB, 27 views)
File Type: jpg Master Seaman rank gw.jpg (98.9 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Master Seaman 69 insig gw.jpg (36.8 KB, 25 views)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 15-04-12, 02:29 PM
royston royston is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cotswolds
Posts: 409
Default

Hi Bryan

A great Victorian Second Class PO Badge, I have the Kings Crown variety (1903 - 07).

John
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 15-04-12, 03:59 PM
RCN's Avatar
RCN RCN is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: So. ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,057
Default

Hi John, I would like a KC PO2 also!

Pls post a photo of it, nice to compare the two & view the crown detail.

Bryan
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 18-09-12, 02:03 PM
RCN's Avatar
RCN RCN is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: So. ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,057
Default Anchor with Crown above rank badge

I have resurrected this topic as over the summer I acquired a Kings Crown PO2 insignia & would like to show some photos of it in this thread.

Its been worn but still in excellent condition for a badge that could be over 100 yrs old.

RCN Bryan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PO2 KC.jpg (42.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg PO2 KC rev.jpg (53.9 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg PO2 insig obv.jpg (51.0 KB, 201 views)
File Type: jpg PO2 KC insig crown detail.jpg (61.5 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg PO2 KC insig GCB.jpg (63.0 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg Po2 KC insig rev.jpg (67.7 KB, 5 views)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 18-09-12, 02:15 PM
RCN's Avatar
RCN RCN is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: So. ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,057
Default Achor with Queens Crown above

If the reader would re read the initial posts in this topic he would see we were discussing the single anchor with a QUEENS crown above.

I have posted the theory that I feel this is the short lived RCN Master Seaman (MS) inisgnia that was in use after the Canadian Forces Integration but prior to the new CAF (green uniform) ranks coming out.
viz: it was to be the CAF(N) equivalent of the new CAF Master Corporal rank.

At a show I attended earlier this summer past I acquired another of these badges, & as it differs from the example I posted earlier in the topic, I would like to show both of them here for comparison......

The jewels in the crown are same for both -
ie: red - yellow - blue - yellow - red
RCN Bryan
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Master Seaman ins obv.jpg (38.8 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Master Seaman ins rev.jpg (50.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg Master Seaman insig obv.jpg (40.1 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Master Seaman insig rev.jpg (49.0 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg Master Seaman crown detail.jpg (63.3 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Master Seaman ins Crown det.jpg (71.9 KB, 9 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:33 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.