Fort Garry Horse?

[jim a]

Hi... I acquired this badge yesterday from a friend and fellow collector. It's a flat backed maker marked example that had folding tangs at one time. My question is that there is a large P impressed on the back under the makers mark... I haven't seen this before... any ideas?

[jim a]

[whizzbang]

Originally Posted by jim a

Hi... I acquired this badge yesterday from a friend and fellow collector. It's a flat backed maker marked example that had folding tangs at one time. My question is that there is a large P impressed on the back under the makers mark... I haven't seen this before... any ideas?

Hi Jim,

Your photos aren't loading up on my screen so I can't tell what your badge is made of but I have several badges with a "P" on the back for silver plated.

Cheers, Ian.

[fougasse1940]

Gaunt used a "P" to indicate silver plated rather than solid silver.

Rgds,
fougasse1940.

[jim a]

So this would probably be an Officers badge with the P denoting the overlay on this series of badge is silver plated....

[Bill A]

Interesting information. Now, when would that date the badge? CEF? Or, post war?

[jim a]

My thoughts are CEF mostly because of the makers mark plus it had tangs instead of lugs... but I'll defer to the opinions of the more experienced CEF collectors.

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by jim a

So this would probably be an Officers badge with the P denoting the overlay on this series of badge is silver plated....

Yes, the broken blades suggest a cap badge.

[whizzbang]

Hi Jim - are they definitely tangs, or could they have been flat style lugs? Flat style lugs would lean towards CEF or into the 1920's, mind you I am not sure if Gaunt London ever used flat lugs. FGH with this style banner (as opposed to the more wavy one) is early post war militia period - Mazeas says 1922.
Cheers, Ian.

[Bill A]

Hi fougasse1940, Blades (tangs in Canadian terminology) were commonly used on both caps and collars. Some post war badges have tangs, but the practice was far more common on CEF badges.

[whizzbang]

Here are some CEF-period Fort Garry Horse badges. The first is the original pre-war militia badge worn up and into WW1. This is the only pattern shown in Charlton's CEF Corps badge book.

The second is the CEF battalion badge with the "6" on the scroll, raised by the Fort Garry Horse for service with the CEF.

The last is similar to Jim's badge but with a WM gate/scroll. This one was made by Tiptaft. It is shown by Mazeas as c.50 GO 71/1922. I am in the process of trying to confirm if this pattern originated in 1922 or whether it was in use earlier.

Cheers, Ian.

[whizzbang]

I made an enquiry to the FGH Regimental Museum in Winnipeg and their curator there was very helpful. Here is the reply (some edits to renumber the badges to match my photos in the previous post):

"Badge #1 was authorized by General Order 157 of 1913, and was worn from that time until the end of the First World War by members of the 34th FGH in Winnipeg. Most, if they are marked, are made by Dingwall or Birks in Winnipeg"

Badge #3 was never officially authorized, but evolved from the 6th Battalion CEF badge (Badge #2) in late 1915. It was worn by the Fort Garry Horse of the CEF in France. It was also worn by members of the unit training as drafts in Winnipeg from about 1917 on. It continued in wear, mostly by ‘old soldiers’ well into the Second World War. Most, if marked are made by British firms such as Tiptaft and Gaunt.

General Order 71 of 1922 authorized a new badge to replace both the 1913 pattern and that worn by the CEF. This is the badge that is still worn today. As mentioned above, there was a period from 1922 to 1945 when both varieties of badge were worn, causing some (and some references such as Charlton and Mazeas) to conclude that the current badge worn by the unit came to be in 1939, which it did not. Some references (such as Babins) indicate that the 1913 pattern was worn by the FGH of the CEF, but this is not true, it was not worn overseas. As the badge that was widely worn in France and afterward was not officially authorized, there is some confusion."

The final badge mentioned is like Badge #3 but with a more wavy scroll - unfortunately I don't have one of those but there is one in the Canadian Badge gallery here: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/can...orse/index.htm.

Cheers, Ian.

[Bill A]

Excellent info Ian. This clarifies the evolution of the Fort Garry's badge. However, there appears to be a couple of patterns missing. There is a gilt leaf one, which appears to be the same as the fifth one in the sequence. It is pictured as a collar in Taboika's Military Antiques and Collectables of the Great War, page 81. There is also a distinctly different officer's cap badge pictured on pages 80 and 81. It also appears to have been worn post war, and maybe into the SWW.
The badge in the Gallery is in my opinion, a later striking, and is the pattern I would associate as the issue type for new troopers in the Second World War. There are some images from LAC which have been posted previously on the Forum, which date to early in the SWW. These appear to show the gilt badge. http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...rt+garry+horse. Could the gilt collar badges, which appear to be the same size as a cap, have been used as a cap at the later dates?

[fearnaught]

Hi, don't know if this helps but these badges belonged to a Canadian officer WW11, both Montreal and London marked. Mike

[WJ Miller]

This is the second one I've seen on eBay recently. I don't recall ever seeing on up close let alone a comparison to matched collars. So, by the size, is this a cap badge or collar? 1 5/16" wide by 1 3/16" high.

http://cgi.ebay.com/UNIFORM-ACCESSOR...item230a241149