British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers and Royal Signals.

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-10-17, 11:12 AM
Hoot Hoot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,269
Default 191st (Herts. & Essex Yeo.) Field Regt. RA.

Hello all, could anyone tell me what badges were worn by the above unit?. I imagine they would have worn the normal RA badges but I was told by an old WW2 veteran, as we looked at the grave of a gunner of the above unit in Bayeux War Cemetery, that he would have worn a badge of the design shown on his headstone. The badge on the stone was the Hart atop the Essex shield. The old veteran would have been in his 80s by then so probably he was mistaken. He wasn't in the unit himself but was of the opinion that all headstones for British personnel only carried the cap badge designs. I know that is not always the case. I thought the design on that particular headstone was from an arm badge the Regiment wore and if there was a cap badge with the Hart atop the Essex shield then I've never seen one. Any help much appreciated, thanks. Hoot.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-10-17, 01:44 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,182
Default

Headstones are not always reflective of the actual badge worn. In some cases, like this one the units' badges are an amalgam of Yeomanry badges rather than the actual ones worn.

http://www.militarian.com/threads/re...ment-ra.10266/ - Shows the RA gun in use.

Alan
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-10-17, 03:11 PM
Mike Jackson's Avatar
Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,253
Default 191 Fd Regt RA

Here's the unique arm badge being worn. Mike
191 Fd Regt RA.jpg191 Fd Regt (Herts and Essex Yeo).01.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-10-17, 03:27 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 5,990
Default

I scoured Norman Litchfields book, "The Territorial Artillery" in an attempt to answer this question but drew a blank.

Looking at the chapters on Essex and Hertfordshire I couldnt find a mention of this unit or a picture of the arm badge.

Very unusual for it not to be in there or am I just looking in the wrong sections?

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-10-17, 04:57 PM
54Bty's Avatar
54Bty 54Bty is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London, England
Posts: 5,597
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
I scoured Norman Litchfields book, "The Territorial Artillery" in an attempt to answer this question but drew a blank.

Looking at the chapters on Essex and Hertfordshire I couldnt find a mention of this unit or a picture of the arm badge.

Very unusual for it not to be in there or am I just looking in the wrong sections?

regards
The Regiment was "War Formed", not Territorial.

Marc
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 191 Fd Regt RA embF-01.jpg (17.0 KB, 14 views)
__________________
I am still looking for the Army Unit sleeve badges from the Sultanate of Oman.

Last edited by 54Bty; 02-10-17 at 05:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-10-17, 05:24 PM
manchesters's Avatar
manchesters manchesters is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 5,990
Default

Oh, the Herts & Essex Yeomanry title sent me the wrong direction.

Thankyou

regards
__________________
Simon Butterworth

Manchester Regiment Collector
Rank, Prize & Trade Badges
British & Commonwealth Artillery Badges
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-10-17, 06:10 PM
Hoot Hoot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,269
Default

Thanks gents, that's the badge I saw on the headstone for certain. If it was ever made in metal as a cap badge it would certainly be a cracker but I can't see it somehow.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-10-17, 07:41 PM
Mike Jackson's Avatar
Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,253
Default 191 Fd Regt RA

My notes on the subject:

191 (Herts and Essex Yeo) Fd Regt RA
The Regiment was formed on 29 Nov 42 and the unit sign was designed by the CO when the unit was stationed at Trowbridge in the Spring of 1943. Commenting on the design, the CRA (Commander Royal Artillery) is quoted to have said, “Well, I don’t suppose that it can do any bloody harm!” The sign (known colloquially by the soldiers as the Goat and Cutlasses was particularly welcomed by those members of 86 (Herts Yeo) Fd Regt RA and 147 (Essex Yeo) Fd Regt RA from which 191 (Herts and Essex Yeo) Fd Regt was formed. Many officers of 191 Fd Regt RA continued to wear their former Yeomanry cap and collar badges together with cloth shoulder titles ROYAL ARTILLERY and RA Arm of Service strips.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-10-17, 06:00 PM
Hoot Hoot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,269
Default

It would seem my memory is not as sharp as I thought. It was twelve years ago when I visited Bayeux War Cemetery and saw the headstone in question and, having looked it up, the design is far more elaborate than I remember. The Essex shield is within a circle, the wording on the circle reads "Herts & Essex Yeomanry", the Hart stands atop the circle and below the circle is a scroll bearing the title "191Field Regt. R.A.". It's certainly an impressive design. Growing old is a curse.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-10-17, 09:22 PM
Expat Yeoman's Avatar
Expat Yeoman Expat Yeoman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 424
Default

Hoot, the design was only made and used as the cloth arm badge, never in metal / as a cap badge.

Michael
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-10-17, 09:56 PM
Hoot Hoot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,269
Default

Thanks for that Michael.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-12-19, 01:22 PM
royG royG is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 1
Default I have one here,I took a picture for you, heres what i found out

191st (Hertfordshire and Essex Yeomanry) Field Regiment, Royal Artillery

In April 1943 Lt-Col Cochrane devised an arm badge for the regiment comprising the red shield bearing three golden*seaxes*from the Essex Yeomanry badge, surmounted by the golden*hart*of the Herts Yeomanry badge, embroidered on a green diamond (the Herts Yeomanry colour). Although strictly unofficial and not conforming to*Army Council*Instructions, the badge (worn on both arms) was well-regarded by members of the regiment who nicknamed it the 'Goat and Cutlasses'. Uniquely, it was adopted by the*Commonwealth War Graves Commission*instead of an authorised cap badge to be carved on the headstones of members of the regiment who died on service

From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/191st_(Hertfordshire_and_Essex_Yeomanry)_Field_Reg iment,_Royal_Artillery#Insignia>
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-12-19, 09:36 AM
Hoot Hoot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,269
Default

Roy, thanks for that.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-12-19, 11:56 PM
Expat Yeoman's Avatar
Expat Yeoman Expat Yeoman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 424
Default

I've come across some further photos of the regiment which confirm RA badges being worn on headdress. I have never seen the diamond patch worn as headress, only as the arm badge, the origins of which are as quoted above.

EY
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:39 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.