Regular Infantry First World War Economy Issue Badges

what is the point of this forum this is the point of the forum is so ever one put his own views I think the badge is good others think is wrong


peter

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by peter616

what is the point of this forum this is the point of the forum is so ever one put his own views I think the badge is good others think is wrong


peter

Education is a wonderful thing!

Andy

[davec2]

Originally Posted by peter616

what is the point of this forum this is the point of the forum is so ever one put his own views I think the badge is good others think is wrong


peter

Peter,

In reality, I know very little but I have just made my peace with nottuh13 over a similar badge and situation, the forum may be a vehicle to offer advice, opinions and beliefs but I do not think it is there to blatantly steer people in the wrong direction, particularly by sellers like yourself who should know better.

You are the only person, so far, who actually thinks it is right to describe a spurious badge as genuine, it may well be a genuine badge as suggested, Canadian for instance but everyone is in agreement that it is not a WWI British Economy version.

That is why I ask, what is the point of this forum, I'm no longer speechless but I am bloody mystified with your insistance that you are right ??

Dave.

andy you need to go back then the York & Lanc Regt have an All brass i have a few with the medals etc etc

and Dave i have been photogaphing badges for years for some of the best collections you will ever see so i will stick with my views

peter

[davec2]

I'm sorry Peter, I thought we were discussing a brass Black Watch badge????

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by peter616

you need to go back then the York & Lanc Regt have an All brass i have a few with the medals etc etc

peter

Peter,
you may have one, but that is not to say it is genuine! I have one too and mine is a FAKE!

Andy

Yes, we are talking about the Black Watch badge; but as you see Andy has got a York & Lancs all brass that he doesn't like & I've got a York & Lancs all brass that is still on its original cap & came with his MM & bar trio, long service good conduct & his GSM South Persia. This was given to me direct from the family, one Christmas 40 odd years ago. You can see the different points of view people have. I had the privaledge 20 yrs ago of photographing 2 of the best collections of Scottish badges you could ever see. Both these collections were started in the mid 1920s & both had an all brass Black Watch badge in them. One was still on the original headgear & the other was one of the best examples I have ever seen; so, I'd rather go with what I've learnt from these old collectors. Their knowledge was passed on not only to me but to other people & this is why I like the Forum because we can have friendly arguments. I think on this matter we shall have to differ; I think the Black Watch badge is real but some others don't.

[Bill A]

Just a thought about the provenance of the badges Peter mentions. The 73rd Battalion, Royal Highlanders of Canada, acquired a brass imperial pattern Black Watch badge. They also purchased much of their uniform accoutrements from UK suppliers. I have examined a couple of glens that have British tailors' names on labels in the cap. It is a distinct possibility that the old collections included a Canadian Black Watch 73rd Bn badge in their collections. And when examined, the evidence would suggest that it was a British badge.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by peter616

Yes, we are talking about the Black Watch badge; but as you see Andy has got a York & Lancs all brass that he doesn't like & I've got a York & Lancs all brass that is still on its original cap & came with his MM & bar trio, long service good conduct & his GSM South Persia. This was given to me direct from the family, one Christmas 40 odd years ago. You can see the different points of view people have. I had the privaledge 20 yrs ago of photographing 2 of the best collections of Scottish badges you could ever see. Both these collections were started in the mid 1920s & both had an all brass Black Watch badge in them. One was still on the original headgear & the other was one of the best examples I have ever seen; so, I'd rather go with what I've learnt from these old collectors. Their knowledge was passed on not only to me but to other people & this is why I like the Forum because we can have friendly arguments. I think on this matter we shall have to differ; I think the Black Watch badge is real but some others don't.

Peter,
I agree 100% about the Forum... everyone has their point of view, some based on fact and official records, some on tall stories and some on tales told down the pub!

I have posted an album of ALL of the official 1916 gilding metal economy Infantry badges issued during the First World War... I received a lot of help from very knowledgeable Forum members and some information from reputable collectors who are sadly no longer with us!.... That album contains variants of the same badges, probably down to a range of manufacturers but does not contain a "Cat and Cabbage". I am more than happy that my album is complete and although I still have badges to add they are of specimens already represented!

As always, I am happy to be proven wrong but I am driven by a desire to avail truthful and accurate information to the members of this Forum. I do sell badges but I would not embellish the truth just to inflate a selling price, nor do I suggest you would do that either!

I repeat that the economy came with the manufacturing process and the time saved by making a previously two metaled badge from one medium.

In my opinion it is only the Fakers that have not fully understood this economy and that is the reason why we see badges such as the Royal West Kent, Yorkshire Regt, all the White metal Scottish badges and some bi metal badges that there would be no economy in producing them in a single GM variation being sold as original.

I suggest that you being one of this Forums listed Dealers should at least bear some of this available information in mind, as many are putting their trust and spending their hard earned cash on your reputation as a knowledgeable dealer!

We all make errors, it's accepting the fact that we are not always correct is what strenghtens our integrity!

I am always willing to add genuine badges to my 1916 GM album.

Andy

[Mike]

'Vincent' is a new member from France, he's been finding things on the beaches of Normandy and Dunkirk, and he obviously has a genuine and keen interest.
Below is an image of badges he sent me before he signed up. Having myself found badges in the sand dunes around where I live, I'm certain this picture shows at least a few beach finds.

So he's getting to know the ropes on the forum, and I'm certain nothing untoward was intended with his sales listing. Just bad luck he picked one to list from one of our 'long rumbling' topics

[2747andy]

Vincent has replied to my PM (polite and very amicable), I am sure he will be a a valuable asset to the Forum! I wonder if the RE GvR badge shown in his haul was still being worn by a veteran of the the first World War at Normandy! I know that I certainly wore KC belt buckle brasses up to 2005!

Andy!

[davec2]

Originally Posted by Bill A

Just a thought about the provenance of the badges Peter mentions. The 73rd Battalion, Royal Highlanders of Canada, acquired a brass imperial pattern Black Watch badge. They also purchased much of their uniform accoutrements from UK suppliers. I have examined a couple of glens that have British tailors' names on labels in the cap. It is a distinct possibility that the old collections included a Canadian Black Watch 73rd Bn badge in their collections. And when examined, the evidence would suggest that it was a British badge.

Hi Bill,

The footie was a nice diversion !!!

You say at the end of your thread that evidence would suggest that it was a British badge......................does it also suggest that it was a genuine British badge or one of the many brass badges that are being sold as genuine nowadays and for a lot of money ?

The whole point of this debate and I'm getting tired now, is that according to the general consensus, Peter excluded, there was not a WWI Economy version of the Black Watch, one was I believe, sold recently on ebay for a lot of money but I can't for the life of me remember the details.

I have, apart from a pre territorial Camerons, a scrolled brass Camerons badge, said in Bloomers' to exist and a cracking 14th London, known to be a copy, if I tried to sell either as WWI Economy badges, I would be accused of being a cheat at best.

I can only suggest that on this occasion, we let sleeping dogs lie, Peter it seems will not budge, for reasons known only to himself and I am openly questioning the ethics involved but at the end of the day, who am I ?

I'm already struggling to understand the logic of what has been said and to be honest, I'm disappointed, as on previous occasions when I've felt strongly about a subject, I have found it hard to get my point of view considered ??

Dave.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Vincent has replied to my PM (polite and very amicable), I am sure he will be a a valuable asset to the Forum! I wonder if the RE GvR badge shown in his haul was still being worn by a veteran of the the first World War at Normandy! I know that I certainly wore KC belt buckle brasses up to 2005!

Andy!

Hardly even a veteran, there were less than 4.5 years between the accession of George the Sixth and Dunkirk.

[Bill A]

Hello Dave, Sorry sometimes the ideas don't come out as one thinks they will. The 73rd used the imperial Black Watch badge as a template, but manufactured in brass. They also purchased many of their accouterments from Brit sources. BUT the badges appear to be Brit issue, but were actually for the Canadian Black Watch. To sum up, even in the 1920s a badge on a cap that was made by a British tailor would appear to be a Brit badge. However it was a case of mistaken identity... A badge made for the Canadian Battalion that without provenance could be attributed to a British Highland regiment.

[Alan O]

Personally I am prepared to believe that the BW badge is genuine. But the problem that I have with it is that it is a genuine CANADIAN badge and not a genuine ECONOMY badge.

I am afraid that I do not regard any dealer's opinion or a dealer's web site with a vested interest as a credible source on its own. Dealers are selling all sorts of mis-identifed and fake brass badges as economy and perpetuate this lie. There are a number of websites with cap badges on them but these are not authoritative sources but one person's description which they are using to make a profit. For example I have also seen an all brass Y&L badge being attributed to a WW2 Y&L Bn with a price tag to match. There is no documentary evidence to support these claims.

The question is when you are paying prices that are well over the norm what are you buying? An opinion or a guarantee? For me the only quarantee is that you have a lump of base metal worth a fraction of a penny. The other £'s spent are all based on your own knowledge and authoritative sources and these range from official records to well researched books. Am I willling to pay £'s for a small lump of brass - yes I am. But I base that on a solid identification, accurate research and a lot of experience and never on any seller's say so on its own.

Caveat Emporer seems appropriate here and probably a quote about Mammon.

Alan