1st Bn Monmouthshire Regiment - Gilding Metal Cap Badge (KK 1770) - Question?

[2747andy]

One for the Mons experts.

Having been in search of a genuine example of a Gilding metal KK 1770, I now have one after a 15 year search.

My question is, was this a manufacturers error on the change from the Wm plain Dragon to the "Rifle Brigade" pattern badge in 1925. That is made in Gm in error rather than the normal Rifles Wm, as the Wm badges are far more common!

Andy

[eddie]

Hi Andy,

The gilding metal badge I believe was no mistake, as at the time the 1st Monmouthshire were still wearing the brass dragon badge from WW1 and not the W/M dragon.

All the best,
Eddie.

[2747andy]

Wow!

Cannot fault that for an answer! No wonder it took me so long to track one down, and for their scarceness in comparison to the Wm badge. Although both are heavily copied!

Thanks Eddie!

Best regards

Andy

[KLR]

If it's official, it should be listed in the RACD records at Kew. I'll try to remember to look it up next time I'm there.

[49lassiepen]

Hi Andy i also have this badge in the same metal I obtained mine 20/3/93 when Bob Quested sold his collection via a closed crown imperial auction I,m 100% sure it is genuine

[2747andy]

With just over 600 of these ever being made? They are quite rare.. watch out for a flood of lugged examples?

Andy

[paj1]

The story behind this cap badge is what makes this hobby so interesting
after 15 years of searching you must be over the moon to find one at last
well done.
paj1

[2747andy]

Paj1,
it was worth the wait and even moreso to hear the story above, which sounds pretty reasonable!

Andy

[Alan O]

This does raise the question of which Bn wore the plain brass dragon prior to 1920? It has been attributed to the 1st bn while the 2nd -4th wore the brass one. This would seem to cast a doubt on that as it is illogical to go from w/m to brass and then back to w/m.

The other option is that the the WM badge was a TF pre-war thing that was lost when the WD issued brass badges to all 4 bns in 1915. A third option is that w/m was was walking out dress only which lapsed in 1914.

[Tim GJ]

Loking at photos over time (S.Wales Argus and other sources) the plain brass dragon was actually worn by all battalions from before WWI to After WWII.

Is there anybody out there that regards themselves as a Mons expert that is interested in a project to consolidate the information on unifom and badges?

I know some of mine are genuine as they came from the quartemaster at the Malpas Drill Hall in the late 1960's. I also have a couple of small Bronze dragons on a rifle regiment boss as worn in Offices caps WWI

[Alan O]

Tim,

When you say all Bns wore the brass dragon until after WW2, do you not mean all bns upto 1920 and then the 2nd etc until after WW2? To be accurate the 1st Bn were wearing the w/m badge with wreath from the inter war years.

[41st]

I know he is too self effacing to put himself forward as a Mons expert, but if anyone is it's Eddie.
I've seen his collection and research.

On the subject of the brass dragon, I thought we'd been through that before. It was worn by all battalions in service dress prior to the introduction of the new badge for the 1st Mons.

[2747andy]

An example of this rather scarce Gm pattern badge is currently available on eBay, I will from outset say that the seller, who appears as one of the Forum selected sellers is not in any way intended to be the target of this post and I buy from them regularly and intend to do so in the future! However the more I look at the badge, the more unsure I become as to whether or not it is good or just a good copy? Being in the fortunate position of already owning examples of this badge, two in Gm and one which has been chromed, the example currently listed looks very good, appears to have signs of age and has a nice patina but certain features of the Dragon, in particular the ribs to its chest and the poppies in the upper part of the wreath and tail do not look quite right?

My dilemma is, that a friend of mine who is not a Forum member has asked for my opinion on the badge! I have stated that I am not 100% and he has therefore decided not to place a bid! I regularly inform the sellers when I believe one of their listing is dubious and have always received a positive response!

Do any other members have any views on this particular item, as 1. I would not want to stop someone acquiring a scarce badge for their collection and 2. I would not want to contact the seller raising doubts on a perfectly good badge?

The badge

Andy

[Peter Brydon]

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

P.B.

[Alan O]

The patina is awful and appears artificially aged to me.