WM KC Suffolk Regiment

[Alan O]

These would be so very easy to fake and create a new variant using the single die from a bi-metal suffolk badge without the brass overlay.

I would not buy either. I remain very sceptical about all supposed RAC abdges as I am very doubtful that a special run of nickel badges would be made for a single regt at a time when the WD was economising. Far more likely was the local plating of standard issued badges which some accounts have alluded to.

[chief_chum]

"The TF version of the badge would have been phased out post-1916 and was not re-introduced post-ww1."

There are many photographs of the TF badge being worn right up until the end of the war and plenty of it being worn alongside the regular badge by 4/Suffolk men in the early 1920s.

[KLR]

There is actually abundant evidence that WM 'walking out' dress badges were worn from 1908. However I suspect the practice was dropped in 1914 ? and I don't think ever worn in the period between the wars

The new Regulations for the Territorial Force stated that ‘Honours worn by units of the regular army will not be worn by corresponding units of the Territorial Force’ Although many regiments carried honours on their badges, the King’s did not and thus their TF Battalions’ badges could be the same as their regular counterparts. Otherwise ‘With these exceptions the distinctive badges are common to both forces. In the "walking-out" uniform they will be entirely in white metal or bronze, except where special permission has been given for the adoption of gold lace and gilt ornaments.’[1]

The Territorial Yearbook published in 1910 copied many sections of the Regulations, about Service Dress which stated that ‘Two suits of uniform will be provided for each man, one of which must be for Service Dress. The other may be used as an undress or “walking-out” uniform.’ Regarding (cap) badges it declared that honours won by the regular RA and RE would be omitted from TF badges. With these exceptions however, ’distinctive badges are common to both forces. In the “walking-out” uniform they will be entirely of white metal or bronze, except where permission has been given to adopt gold lace and gilt ornaments. Cap Badges worn in service dress will be as worn in the Regular Army with the omission of honours.’[1]

At a general meeting of the new West Lancashire Territorial Association on 12.11.1908 it was resolved ‘That silver and white metal be adopted by all units under the administration of this Association for walking out dress, and for all uniforms except service dress.’[1]

I agree that Stephen was slightly out in using the term 'phased out'.
"HM the King approves of units of T.F. being permitted to wear on their badges, the mottoes & honours worn on the badges of the corps, regiment or department of which they form part. The letter T will still be worn below the collar badges by Officers of the T.F."[1]

This really only suggests that they might have stopped making 'TF' badges not that they were abandoned or made obsolete. I can think of plenty of other badges of an 'older pattern' being worn long after they were superseded by later Patterns.



[1] WO 359/16, 3; AO 298, 29/9/1917.


[1] LRO 356 WES 1/1



[1] Territorial Yearbook and Directory 1910, 11.



[1] Regulations for the Territorial Force, and for County Associations 1908, pxx, para 553.

[badjez]

Taff,
Re "The TF version of the badge would have been phased out post-1916 and was not re-introduced post-ww1."

I was meaning the same as you. Production ceased in 1916, but those in wear would not have been replaced but continued in wear until such time as they needed replacement. This would be in line with many other replacement items introduced by Ordnance.

Julian,
I wasn't disputing the existence of 'walking out' items per-se, just questioning whether they existed for the Suffolk Regiment, after all, the most common walking-out items for other regiments appear to be WM shoulder titles.
Good references used 10/10.

Stephen.

[badger123]

Originally Posted by mooke07

Great thread now developing thanks chaps - where are the photos - there should be some between the wars and Second War photos we can determine if the WM badges were worn and by whom.

Cheers Dean

A forthcoming book about badges of the York and Lancaster Regiment refers to photographs in the Y&L regimental archive that show the regimental band wearing wm or chromed badges in the inter war years as well as Regimental Police wearing wm or chromed badges on their brassards in the 1960's (but with Yorkshire Brigade cap badges in their berets).

I have several chromed Y&L badges in my collection and have seen a few elsewhere. All have sliders and all have the pattern of sweat holes found on pre WW1 through to end of WW1 era badges.

I do accept Julian's excellent references to walking out badges but whether they refer to the Suffolk Regiment I am not qualified to say.

Ivan

[chief_chum]

Hi Stephen,
I was agreeing with you!
I think the use of the Suffolk TF badge post war was confined to the Old Sweats showing the post war men that they had seen plenty of service.

I have never come across any sign that Suffolk Regiment soldiers ever had different badges for walking out.

As white metal badges were the sign of Volunteer battalions I can't imagine Regulars wanting to be seen wearing badges that might suggest that they were anything other than proper soldiers!

Of course some TF units had WM badges but I have never come across a WM version of the Suffolk TF badge.

I have been lucky enough to have been an honorary member of the Suffolk Regiment OCA since 1990 and have met and interviewed veterans who served in the Regiment from 1914 to 1959. I have detailed notes on uniform, equipment and insignia and a collection of photographs which runs into many thousands.

The only time I have ever come across a chromed version of the standard cap badge was on the leather standard bearers holster of one of the other branches.

The Suffolks didn't do bling. At the time of the merger with the Royal Norfolks in 1959, the Suffolks were horrified to see the level of polish & bull indulged in by the IXth.

As one Suffolk Officer wrote to his Father, "Some of us guard the apes; the others ape the Guards"!

[Sonofacqms]

When I first started seriously collecting Cambridgeshire badges and was attempting to obtain every variation a dealer showed me a "Cambridgshire" badge in white metal, the price was expensive as he said it was it was a rare badge, closer inspection showed it to be a WWII manufactured badge without the overlay scroll, either this had not been brazed on properly or someone had created this rarity by removing the overlay.

As Alan has so rightly said in his post they are easier to make than the bi-metal types as there is no additional scroll to add.

The fact that there is a lack of voiding on both badges around the castle and between the laurel leaves and crown makes me think that neither of these badges have been properly finished, a bit of wear and a good polish and here we are debating as to their authenticity which is what a forum should be.

Rob

[Peter Brydon]

Another example of"never say never", this is from a booklet about the West Lancashire Division published in 1911.

In relation to the 9th Battalion KLR the booklet says "The walking out dress is khaki, not the scarlet of the Line Regiment with which the Battalion is affiliate."

I don't know the reason for the battalion not having a scarlet walking out dress, I cannot imagine it was a matter of cost as the same did not apply to any of the infantry battalions in the Division. I don't know if the same applied to any other territorial infantry battalion or if the 9th Kings Liverpools were unique in this respect.

( thinking about it white metal titles T/9/Kings do exist so perhaps the situation may have differed before or after 1911 )

P.B.

[ANGLE IRON]

Here is my one, I must admit that my belief was based only on what I had been told with no sound evidence.
The lack of voiding is not unusual, here are some of the variations which include all sorts of odd voiding- non voiding
I have pictured my WM one which I am happy with but conceed it may well be made from an un finished badge, I have at least one other that has never had a scroll or slider, Kev

[ANGLE IRON]

clicked wrong button!

[Alan O]

That badge screams fake to me. The lugs and their placement even if there was a genuine all w/m version.

[2747andy]

Screaming to me too! Not so much the placement but feet like "Flip Flops"!

Andy

[badjez]

Rob,

Digressing slightly (but staying within the Suffolk Corps): according to post-war records on 01.07.50. Ordnance sought to know what badges 629 LAA Regt RA (The Cambridgeshire Regt) TA wore. Reply;
Officer's Coloured Forage Cap with peak- All silver.
Officer's SD with peak- Bronze.
Beret for all ranks- O/R's cap badge.
Collard Dogs- SD- Brass. Blues- Silver.
30.10.50. WO request Regt adopt RA Grenade collar dogs & silver buttons.
04.12.51. WO confirm that Officer's badge should be silver plate & OR's WM.
24.10.52. Patterns of badges and buttons sealed for wear by 629 Regt.
24.10.52. Sealed as replacement for WM & GM version. Regt was RA unit at this time.
27.07.55. Proposed Dress & Embellishments for 629 Airborne Light Regt, RA (TA). Beret- all ranks. Maroon Airborne beret with Cambs Regt cap badge. (Officers- silver. OR's- WM).

Therefore, an all WM Cambs Regt would be an unusual RA version!

Stephen.

[Sonofacqms]

Stephen,

Nice to hear from you, with regards to white metal badges to the Cambridgeshire Regt, there was an all white metal badge which was worn post WWII, sealed 24th October 1952, as to whether this was widely issued is another matter, I can remember a friend of mine whose Father was in the Cambridgeshire T.A., in the mid 1950's who had a bi-metal badge, maybe old stock . . !

Rob

[KLR]

It was quite common for new Pattern badges not to be issued until "existing stocks were used up".