TF Bns. post 1908 - Page 3 - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Wmr-RHB · #31 19-09-11, 01:12 PM

Similar information at the site I refered to earlier in this thread: http://www.1914-1918.net/rwf.htm

Peter Brydon · #32 19-09-11, 01:28 PM

Henk,

You are right and I am a member of the GWF as well as this Forum but dont forget the GWF is only about battalions that served during WW1 where as Fredericks book deals with all battalions from 1660 to 1978 and therefore gives information on battalions that existed prior to WW1 and after the war including battalions that were raised just prior to and during WW2.

Peter

grumpy · #33 19-09-11, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

I have to say that the Kings Liverpools boast having had 57 battalions in
WW1 although not all existed at the same time.

The best source of information on Lineage is the 2 volume "Lineage Book of the British Army 1660-1978 " by ( Reverend ) J.B.M. Frederick. It is not the easiest book to follow and it sometimes takes some time to find the regiment you are looking for information on,but once you find the right page it is all there.

The entry for the 23rd Bn. RWF formed in 1915 as the 47th Provisional Bn (TF) from Frederick is attached.

P.B.

or the five volume "Genealogy of the ....... Infantry" by Anthony Baker, cost second hand similar a couple of genuine GMGR cap badges!

I have to take the experts' opinions but where they conflict, there's the rub.

Wmr-RHB · #34 19-09-11, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

Henk,

You are right and I am a member of the GWF as well as this Forum but dont forget the GWF is only about battalions that served during WW1 where as Fredericks book deals with all battalions from 1660 to 1978 and therefore gives information on battalions that existed prior to WW1 and after the war including battalions that were raised just prior to and during WW2.

Peter

You are correct. I pointed allready to the fact that the site is from 1914 - 1919. But I more or less forgot about that seeing your badly readable copy (mostly due to the original, not to your scan I guess) and compared that to the nicely designed web site. Also the site seems to answer REMEVMBEA1's question and grumpy's list is also the same as the one on the web site.

I tried to point to the fact that the web site answers those questions (only from 1914-1919) and thus people could first go there before asking the same again here.

grumpy · #35 19-09-11, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

You are correct. I pointed allready to the fact that the site is from 1914 - 1919. But I more or less forgot about that seeing your badly readable copy (mostly due to the original, not to your scan I guess) and compared that to the nicely designed web site. Also the site seems to answer REMEVMBEA1's question and grumpy's list is also the same as the one on the web site.

I tried to point to the fact that the web site answers those questions (only from 1914-1919) and thus people could first go there before asking the same again here.

If it is Great War that is focus of attention, THERE IS NO FORUM TO COMPARE WITH GWF in my opinion.

Peter Brydon · #36 19-09-11, 03:35 PM

I certainly would not disagree with that.

P.B.

elgee45 · #37 20-09-11, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

I am now finding this thread interesting and educational.

Secondly, didn't the Northern Cyclists also have a N/C title and wasn't there also the T/S title ?

Hello Bill,

Don't know whether I'm adding education or confusion, but Ray Westlake's Shoulder Title book gives this chronology for the genesis of the Northern Cyclists;

Northern Cyclist Battalion
1908 Formed as 8th (Cyclist) Bn. Northumberland Fusiliers (TF).
1910 Redesignated Northern Cyclist Bn. at Newcastle-on-Tyne.
1920 Transferred to Royal Garrison Artillery.

From 1908 until its redesignation in 1910 what badges and shoulder titles did this Bn. wear? Does anyone have access to primary sources that might cast some light on this?

Graham Stewart · #38 22-09-11, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elgee45

Hello Bill,

Don't know whether I'm adding education or confusion, but Ray Westlake's Shoulder Title book gives this chronology for the genesis of the Northern Cyclists;

Northern Cyclist Battalion
1908 Formed as 8th (Cyclist) Bn. Northumberland Fusiliers (TF).
1910 Redesignated Northern Cyclist Bn. at Newcastle-on-Tyne.
1920 Transferred to Royal Garrison Artillery.

From 1908 until its redesignation in 1910 what badges and shoulder titles did this Bn. wear? Does anyone have access to primary sources that might cast some light on this?

The 8th Battalion, N.F.(T.F.) never got off the ground at all and was supposed to formed from the Cyclist companies from the old N.F. Volunteer Battalions in 1908. As it so happend these Northumberland Cyclist companies(all two of them) were never ever up to establishment, even up to the day the battalion was announced.

In an effort to cure the problem it was decided to form a Northern Cyclist Battalion, which would also include those Cyclist companies from the V.B.'s of the Durham Light Infantry.

As you would expect there was constant argument among both County Associations about this new battalion, which was eventually administered by Northumberland, but the bulk of it's strength lay within Durham.

They compromised on the facing colour of the new scarlet uniform, by introducing "Sage" green facings and not wearing either the gosling green of the NF and dark green of the Durham's.

A lot of this is covered in the Minute Books of the County Durham Territorial Force Association and also reports in the St.Georges Gazette.

Wmr-RHB · #39 22-09-11, 11:59 AM

Nice story on the background of the dry list.

Graham Stewart · #40 22-09-11, 12:02 PM

Northumberland Fusiliers Battalion’s serving in The Great War 1914-19

• 1 - 1st Battalion
• 2 - 2nd Battalion
• 3 - 3rd (Reserve) Battalion
• 4 - 1/4th Battalion(T/F)
• 5 - 1/5th Battalion(T.F.)
• 6 - 1/6th Battalion(T.F.)
• 7 - 1/7th Battalion(T.F.)
• 8 – 11 - 2/4th, 2/5th, 2/6th & 2/7th Battalions(T.F.)
• 12 – 15 - 3/4th, 3/5th, 3/6th and 3/7th Battalions(T.F.)
• 16 – 19 - 4th, 5th, 6th & 7th (Reserve) Battalions(T.F.)
• 20 - 8th Battalion
• 21 - 9th Battalion(Northumberland Hussars Yeomanry)
• 22 - 10th Battalion
• 23 - 11th Battalion
• 24 - 12th Battalion
• 25 - 13th Battalion
• 26 - 14th Battalion(Pioneer)
• 27 - 15th (Reserve) Battalion
• 28 - 16th Battalion(Newcastle)
• 29 - 17th Battalion(North Eastern Railways – Pioneers)
• 30 - 18th Battalion(1st Tyneside Pioneers)
• 31 - 19th Battalion(2nd Tyneside Pioneers)
• 32 - 35 - 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd Battalions(1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4thTyneside Scottish Battalions)
• 36 – 39 - 24th, 25th, 26th, 27th (1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Tyneside Irish Battalions)
• 40 - 28th (Reserve) Battalion
• 41 - 29th (Reserve) Battalion (Tyneside Scottish)
• 42 - 30th (Reserve) Battalion (Tyneside Irish)
• 42 - 31st (Reserve) Battalion
• 44 - 32nd (Reserve) Battalion(N.E.R.)
• 45 - 33rd (Reserve) Battalion (Tyneside Scottish)
• 46 - 34th (Reserve) Battalion (Tyneside Irish)
• 47 - 35th Battalion(T.F.)
• 48 - 36th Battalion(T.F.)
• 49 - 37th (Home Service) Battalion
• 50 - 38th Battalion
• 51 - 51st(Graduated) Battalion
• 52 - 52nd (Graduated) Battalion
• 53 - 53rd (Young Soldier) Battalion
• 54 - 1st (Garrison) Battalion
• 55 - 2nd (Garrison) Battalion
• 56 - 3rd (Home Service) (Garrison) Battalion
• 57 - 40th (Service) Battalion
• 58 - 41st (Service) Battalion
• Total 58, which does not include the Volunteer Battalions raised in July 1918 from Northumberland Volunteer Regiment.

From my observations, in general badge collectors seem not to divulge themselves into the lineage of the British Army, but continue to perpetuate myth and legend.

Wmr-RHB · #41 22-09-11, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

From my observations, in general badge collectors seem not to divulge themselves into the lineage of the British Army, but continue to perpetuate myth and legend.

Everybody his own hobyhorse.

grumpy · #42 22-09-11, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

Everybody his own hobyhorse.

Knowledge holds the key!

Graham Stewart · #43 22-09-11, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BILL DUGGAN

What about regiments that had 4 regular battalions at the time of the Boer War.

The Royal Fusiliers, The Royal Warwicks and The Lancashire Fusiliers had four regular battalions at that time.

I think you'll find that they were used as Mounted Infantry battalions. These were Regular battalions that had nothing to do with being militia or reserve battalions.

The mounted infantry was the elite of the British Army at that time and were very skilled and highly trained to combat the Boer commando's.

I get a bit peeved at modern day amateur historians dismissing these elite battalions as militia / reserve units. They should be given the respect and remembrance that they deserve.

Brief Histories of the 3rd & 4th Bn's, Royal Fusiliers. From what I gather neither served in South Africa as complete M.I. Battalions until 1906. Both the 1st & 2nd Bn's, R.F. had M.I. company's prior to the S.A. War, as did the rest of the Infantry and generally these companies were grouped together to form Mounted Infantry Battalions. Fredericks' Book, as mentioned, does infact list all(?) of the M.I. Battalions and companies which formed them for the S.A. War.

These M.I. Battalions in general were much smaller than the standard infantry battalion and were composed of four companies. Prior to the S.A. War the companies usually consisted of less than 40 all ranks, but would have expanded to "War Establishment" on the beginning of hostilities. This would have included the recalling of reservists, who were M.I. trained.

The Northumberland Fusiliers were also extended to a 3rd & 4th regular battalions, which didn't see service in S.A. until almost the end.

3rd.BATTALION, ROYAL FUSILIERS
1898 - 1922
1898 April 1st. Raised from Nucleus of 2 Companies from 2nd.Battalion at The Curragh
Camp + 1 Company of Reservists
April 5th. Aldershot - Formed into 6 Companies
June Grand Shaft Barracks,Dover
December 9th. Malta
1899 January 1st. Fort Mandel,Malta
August 31st. Casmates Barracks, Gibralter
1900 January 30th. Personnel from 3rd.Battalion form nucleus for 4th. Battalion
1902 May 28th. Alexandria
May 29th. Citadel Barracks,Cairo
November 14th. Right Half Battalion to Khartoum
1903 April 11th. Left Half Battalion to Cairo
July 29th. Citadel Camp,Mena
October 17-19th.Khartoum
1904 Bermuda
1906 South Africa
December 1st. No's.1,2,3,4,Companies form 6th.Battn.Mounted Infantry
1907 Middleburgh South Africa
1908 Pretoria
1909 Pietermaritzburg
1910-11 Mauritius
1912 Chakrata
3RF continued
FIRST WORLD WAR 1914-1919
1914 August 4th. Lucknow
December England
1915 January FRANCE YPRES,LOOS
October EGYPT
December MACEDONIA
1918 July GREECE
FRANCE HINDENBERG LINE,SELLE,SAMBRE
1920 Danzig
1921 England - Bordon Camp
Ireland
1922 July 16th. Aldershot DISBANDED
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4th.BATTALION, ROYAL FUSILIERS
1900 - 1922
1900 January 30th. Raised from nucleus of 3rd.Battalion Royal Fusiliers
February 8th. Dover
June 30th. Lydd
September 27th. Battalion HQ Dover
1901 March 16th. Mounted Infantry Company [later 20th.Battn.Mounted Infantry]
formed and proceeded to South Africa
April 15th. Battalion H.Q Shorncliffe
1902 May Battalion HQ Woolwich
July Battalion HQ HM Tower of London
October 4th. Battalion HQ Cambridge Barracks Woolwich
1905-06 Dublin
1907 Mullingar
1910-11 Aldershot
1913 Parkhurst Isle of Wight
FIRST WORLD WAR 1914 -1919
1914 August 13th. Le Havre
MONS -LE CATEAU -MARNE -AISNE -MESSINES-
ARMENTIERES - YPRES
1915 HOOGE -
1916 SOMME
1917 ARRAS - YPRES
1918 SOMME - LYS - HINDENBURG LINE - SELLE
1919 IRAQ
1921 March 25th. Jullundur,India
1922 July 16th. Aldershot DISBANDED

matti467 · #44 22-09-11, 06:20 PM

HUH!!!! I am a badge collector and I do want to know about army lineage

. However, constant redesignations can be confusing as does happen with 30th bttns, 50th bttns etc.
Yours in collecting and just being cheeky
Matti

elgee45 · #45 23-09-11, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

The 8th Battalion, N.F.(T.F.) never got off the ground at all and was supposed to formed from the Cyclist companies from the old N.F. Volunteer Battalions in 1908. As it so happend these Northumberland Cyclist companies(all two of them) were never ever up to establishment, even up to the day the battalion was announced.

In an effort to cure the problem it was decided to form a Northern Cyclist Battalion, which would also include those Cyclist companies from the V.B.'s of the Durham Light Infantry.

As you would expect there was constant argument among both County Associations about this new battalion, which was eventually administered by Northumberland, but the bulk of it's strength lay within Durham.

They compromised on the facing colour of the new scarlet uniform, by introducing "Sage" green facings and not wearing either the gosling green of the NF and dark green of the Durham's.

A lot of this is covered in the Minute Books of the County Durham Territorial Force Association and also reports in the St.Georges Gazette.

Thanks, Graham. I did read somewhere that there was quite some friction at the DLI having to part with their cyclists - especially to the NF! Must have been like trying to merge Newcastle and Sunderland football teams - an unenviable job at the very least.

Anyway, I'm still no clearer as to what badges the short-lived 8th. TA Bn. of the NF wore between 1908 and the establishment of the Northern Cyclists in 1910. Were the designated troops immediately issued with NC badges in 1908, or during those two years did they just make do with the general NF badges/titles, or did they wear NF cap and collars with a short-lived T8 s/title . . . ? ? ?