Converted Helmet Plate Centre?

[Stephen]

Hi all,

Just curious to see what people think about the following Leinster helmet plate centre. Has it purposely been converted to having loops for use as a glengarry badge or just a poor 'restoration'. The badge itself is fine and loops look contemporary.

Stephen

[KLR]

It is more likely to have been converted for wear on a FSH or a 'Universal Service Headdress' (aka 'slouch'). Did the Leinsters serve in India???

It certainly looks like a contemporary alteration - nice badge!

[Frank Kelley]

I think that is a difficult question to answer, but, the centre itself is a good original example which I like, you can clearly see where it's original wire fittings once were and I think to remains of one of them too in the middle.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Hi all,

Just curious to see what people think about the following Leinster helmet plate centre. Has it purposely been converted to having loops for use as a glengarry badge or just a poor 'restoration'. The badge itself is fine and loops look contemporary.

Stephen

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by KLR

It is more likely to have been converted for wear on a FSH or a 'Universal Service Headdress' (aka 'slouch'). Did the Leinsters serve in India???

It certainly looks like a contemporary alteration - nice badge!

Yes, they were in India, and I've seen photos of the militia returning from South Africa where they are wearing slouch hats.

The lugs are nice and very similar to lugs of on other badges of the period.

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

I think that is a difficult question to answer, but, the centre itself is a good original example which I like, you can clearly see where it's original wire fittings once were and I think to remains of one of them too in the middle.

Thanks Frank, the badge itself is certainly good. You're correct that there were fittings on the centre of it.

Stephen

[cbuehler]

The had a battalion in India for most of their existence, excepting periods during around the South African war and shortly thereafter.
I agree that the conversion looks contemporary, but just how this badge was worn is mystery. No photo exists showing these HP centers in wear on the FSH or slouch hat that I have seen.
Apparently the cloth yellow maple leaf on green square Pagri flash was worn on the FSH after the SA war until 1922.

CB

[Alan O]

I am doubtful its a period change - more likely a repair. You can simply remove the n-s lugs to leave the e-w ones and get the same effect.

[Frank Kelley]

I would be quite surprised if it were proven to be a contemporary conversion, there was a back plate with provision for the centre and crown for wear on the glengarry, cloth was worn on the helmet during the first portion of the Anglo Boer War, with cap badges being available for wear upon the rest, field/slouch/forage.

Originally Posted by cbuehler

The had a battalion in India for most of their existence, excepting periods during around the South African war and shortly thereafter.
I agree that the conversion looks contemporary, but just how this badge was worn is mystery. No photo exists showing these HP centers in wear on the FSH or slouch hat that I have seen.
Apparently the cloth yellow maple leaf on green square Pagri flash was worn on the FSH after the SA war until 1922.

CB

[Luke H]

Those look like relatively modern loops to me (1970s onwards), certainly more recent than the Leinster Regiment’s existence.

In my belief a later repair which now shows its age of c.50 years. For a solder repair that’s a fairly neat job compared to most seen.

[KLR]

The King’s Regiment is one of having a badge sealed for the Service Dress Hat as ‘GM & WM’ SP 5573/1901. In actual fact it was an adapted HPC. The first mention of this badge, on 3.12.1901, stipulated that it be ‘Cut from the same die as the centre of the helmet plate, but the number of shanks reduced to two which are of the size and in position to fit the service headdress.’ [1]

With the Leinsters in mind, their use of the long 'vertical shank'....

'Labels on helmet Plate badges to be worn on new Service Dress Hats to be amended to read, Badges for Service Dress Hats to be fitted with Vertical Shanks same as Dorset Pattern No 5814/1903. Dorset badge to be fitted same as Leinster Pattern No 10010'

I would suggest that Stephen's badge might be related to the WO directives

(I do get tired by the constant cry of "it's a copy" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)


There is a difference between perhaps between arcival documentation and the physical badge !



[1] TNA WO 359/10, 365 ref ACD/40/664. Also 359/11, 131 and 465.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by KLR

(I do get miffed by the constant cry of "it's a copy" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

No one in this thread has said this badge is a copy.

[KLR]

Perhaps I mistaken by the word "copy"
What I meant is that I believe that the "alteration" was likely to have occured in the early years of the 20th century.


I cannot prove ... but I don't think that it can be proven either - without an enormously expenditure for an analysis.

[cbuehler]

Of course no one can prove anything with regard to those lugs and all is but informed conjecture, which applies to so much in this hobby.

CB

[Alan O]

I don't that there is any doubt that its an original badge but having reviewed the photos once more I think the lugs are an old repair to a badge that had all 4 loops removed. It's pointless removing 2 perfectly serviceable loops to replace them with lugs.

[KLR]

The 'stalked circle' (eg for a cap) loop might depend what piece of headgear it was intended for.

[Stephen]

Thanks for the input on this guys, interesting discussion.

The loops are slightly longer too than the normal ones found on a helmet plate centre.

I guess my own theory was that the original loops were cut off so the current ones could be added so the badge could be used on a specific piece of head gear.

As already mentioned, its all complete conjecture.

Stephen