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#16
14-07-11, 05:35 PM
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Feedback
Hi Harry,
I believe the winged dagger patch is an uncut beret badge, not a badge worn on the arm. The M&M patch is OK. So are all of the shoulder tabs. Best regards, Johan 
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#17
15-07-11, 07:04 PM
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"I believe the winged dagger patch is an uncut beret badge, not a badge worn on the arm."
Hi Johan Thanks for your input on this and the other recent threads I have uploaded badges to. I know SAS beret badges of this era had a "waxed paper" type backing. Is there any possibility that this winged dagger badge was the arm flash worn with the Artist Rifles cap badge? Has anyone a picture of both sides of an Artists Rifles winged dagger arm badge for comparrison? Regards
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#18
15-07-11, 07:52 PM
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21 SAS
Quote:
img039.jpgimg041.jpg
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#19
16-07-11, 12:35 PM
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21 SAS
Mike,
Perfect sample of early 21 pattern. Best regards, Johan
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#20
20-07-11, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
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#21
20-07-11, 08:11 PM
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hi johan: Thanks for your interesting post above.
The cloth M & M badge on the arm was taken up when the maroon beret with the M & M badge was replaced at the end of the 1950's with the winged dagger on the sand beret. The M & M cloth badge was in service to at least to the mid 1960's. Best regards!
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#22
21-07-11, 10:12 PM
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M&M
Hi Peter,
You are right about the cloth M&M being worn a bit longer than end fifties. Do you happen to know the exact year when wearing it was discontinued? I think well before BD went out of service. 21 started to wear the cloth M&M on the arm when the white metal M&M on the maroon beret was replaced by the winged dagger sometime Spring 1956 or so. In many cases the cloth square winged dagger patch worn on the arm was cut into a shield shape and then worn on the maroon beret. The maroon beret was replaced by the beige beret end fifties. This did not happen all in one go and a mix of berets was worn for a while. I need to check a few dates here and there! Have some good reference material, but exact dates or years are surprisingly difficult to find out. Similar interesting stories can be told for the various shoulder titles worn by 21 from the start until BD was phased out. Best regards, Johan Last edited by johanwiegman; 18-01-12 at 10:54 PM.
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#24
27-07-11, 11:32 AM
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change of badges
hi Peter,
I made some checks: 21 SAS was raised in 1947. From the start they were wearing the white-metal Mars & Minerva on the maroon beret from 1947-1956. 21 wore the shoulder title "21st S.A.S. (Artists)" (on both arms), parachute wings (on the right arm) and the rectangular/square Winged Dagger patch on the right arm also. 21 started to wear the Winged Dagger on the maroon beret from 19th March 1956. At the same time they adopted the cloth Mars & Minerva patch on the arm. That M&M patch was worn until the mid-sixties, below the shoulder title and parachute wings on the right arm. The initial "21st S.A.S. (Artists)" shoulder title was already changed around 1954 or so to "Special Air Service (Artists)". The "Artists" bit of the shoulder title was taken off around the end of the fifties. The shoulder title "Special Air Service" was retained until battledress was phased out. The change from the maroon to the sand coloured beret took place for both 21 and 22 SAS by the second half of 1957 (by War Office Dress Committee approval on 12 October 1956). It took a while for the sand coloured beret to be universally adopted (in 21 by early 1958). best regards, Johan Last edited by johanwiegman; 18-01-12 at 10:55 PM.
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#25
27-07-11, 01:19 PM
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Hi Johan,
with your knowledge and your collection you should be able to write a nice book on the subject! I know I would buy it,.... even though I don't collect sas anymore. Maybe you could join forces with some other guys on the forum. I think a lot of collectors would be interested, and just f*ck the fakers who will use the info to upgrade their copies. Cheer/groeten! Pieter
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#26
27-07-11, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Not meaning to alter the thread but you know a lot of info that is out there still doesn't enable the fakers to make things close to perfect. Look at the info that I have on my web site and they still can't fake Selous Scouts Officers insignia properly, although I have seen one very good faked badge. The problem is when writing a book on something like SAS badges, wings etc is to make sure that there aren't any fakes listed as genuine by mistake. I know of three authors of Rhodesian militaria books that have listed items as genuine when in fact they are fakes made not long after the war ended. To me that would be one of the biggest problems and then confirming what was official, unofficial but still worn and tolerated etc., god what a job. Would be an interesting book though.
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#27
31-07-11, 08:23 AM
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Hi Lads,
I have an example that clearly has been worn as arm patch by 21st SAS but appears an uncut beret badge, may be pre-dates the 21 pattern just shown here? JB Quote:
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#28
31-07-11, 10:00 AM
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21 SAS winged dagger
Hi JB,
In the world of SAS insignia a lot is possible... I do not believe your patch predates the other pattern, but it could have been worn in parallel to the other pattern, which is the typically 21 pattern. It looks as if your winged dagger patch was actually worn. Since beret badges came uncut (unshaped) it is even possible your badge was worn on a beret like that. I have seen a picture of a beret badge worn unshaped. It is in SAS Rhodesia. See attached picture. Best regards, Johan Last edited by johanwiegman; 31-07-11 at 10:12 AM.
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#30
31-07-11, 10:43 AM
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Hi Johan,
i think it could be a late ww2 uncut SAS beret badge used in late 40-ties when 21st SAS was raised. Cheers, JB Quote:
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